Aaron Rodgers & Jimmy Kimmel Beef Explained: COVID-19, Jeff Epstein & More

If there was one thing that people have seemingly anticipated in 2024, it’s the unveiling of the Jeffrey Epstein list, though it’s already caused a rift between NFL star Aaron Rodgers of the New York Jets and late-night-talk show host Jimmy Kimmel. The two haven’t necessarily seen eye-to-eye. This is largely due to Rodgers’ often right-leaning views and conspiratorial takes. However, things took a turn for the worse on Tuesday. Rodgers appeared on The Pat McAfee Show where the topic of the Epstein list came up. But while discussing the laundry list of high-profile names attached to the disgraced late financier, Rodgers insinuated that Jimmy Kimmel may have been associated with Epstein. Ultimately, Kimmel threatened to take legal action against the NFL star. In the wake of their back-and-forth, we’re diving into the timeline of their beef.

Read More: Aaron Rodgers Making Millions To Appear On “The Pat McAfee Show”

Rodgers Tests Positive For COVID-19

After Rodgers tested positive for COVID-19, it was revealed that he actually misled the public surrounding his vaccination status. Apparently, Rodgers wasn’t entirely truthful when he stated that he was “immunized.” Additionally, he also revealed that he preferred homeopathic treatment. 

“We should have known because nothing says ‘I heal myself with crystals like this haircut. I mean, a little not on top,’” Kimmel said on Jimmy Kimmel Live. In the same segment, he referred to Rodgers as a “Karen” before going in on Rodgers’ supposed immunization. “The only thing worse than not getting vaccinated when you’re in close proximity with other people is letting them think you’re vaccinated when you’re not,” Kimmel said. “It’s basically the COVID equivalent of ‘The condom fell off.’”

Aaron Rodgers Vs. Woke Mob

Within the same month, Rodgers continued to push anti-vaccination theories. He even went as far as saying that he got medical advice from Joe Rogan, who reportedly suggested that he use Ivermectin. Rodgers’ comments on The Pat McAfee Show rattled the internet, and his attack on the “woke mob” and “cancel culture” further aggravated people. He later compared himself to Martin Luther King Jr. through his efforts to push back against the NFL’s regulations surrounding COVID-19.

“You didn’t object. You pretended you were vaccinated and snuck around,” Jimmy Kimmel responded on his show. “Always a good move for a white millionaire to half-quote Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., by the way.” Kimmel also compared Rodgers to Kyrie Irving, another athlete who questioned COVID-19 protocols. “That’s not fair. Kyrie Irving is wrong, but at least he’s honest,” Kimmel said. “Aaron Rodgers let everyone around him think he was vaccinated. He’s not Kyrie Irving, he’s Bernie Madoff.”

Read More: Aaron Rodgers Net Worth 2023: How Much Is The NFL Icon Worth?

Conspiracy Theories & Epstein List

During an appearance on The Pat McAfee Show, Aaron Rodgers discussed UFOs and the growing interest in extraterrestrials. Rodgers believed it might be some sort of distraction from the Epstein list. “There’s some files that have some names on it that might be getting released pretty soon,” Rodgers said. “(Ghislaine) Maxwell was the only person ever convicted of trafficking, and nobody who was involved in the trafficking ever went to jail, so nothing to see here.”

It didn’t take long for Kimmel to fire back at Rodgers. He not only referred to him as a messenger for the tin-foil hatters but also described him as a “Green Bay wack Packer.” “It might be time to revisit that concussion protocol, Aaron,” Kimmel said.

However, this comment swiftly led some to believe that Kimmel could be trying to downplay this supposed list. Rodgers’s former teammate ​​David Bakhtiari initially alluded to an alleged link between Kimmel and Epstein shortly after. “Tell me you’re on the Jeffrey Epstein client list, without telling me you’re on the Jeffrey Epstein client list,” Bakhtiari wrote. Bakhtiari’s unsubstantiated comment was later echoed by Rodgers on The Pat McAfee Show.

Aaron Rodgers Fires Back At Kimmel

As people continue to anticipate the unveiling of the supposed Epstein list, Rodgers, once again, revisited the topic on The Pat McAfee Show on Jan. 2nd. However, he insinuated that we might see Jimmy Kimmel appear on the list, too. “That’s supposed to be coming out soon,” Rodgers said. “There are a lot of people, including Jimmy Kimmel, that are really hoping that doesn’t come out.” While McAfee stated that Rodgers hasn’t let go of Kimmel’s comments, Rodgers revealed that celebrations might be in order when the list emerges. “I’ll let you what, if that list comes out, I will definitely popping some sort of bottle,” Rodgers concluded.

We’re sure that Jimmy Kimmel hoped that he’d be able to ease into the new year but his first tweet of 2024 came in the form of a response to Rodgers. Due to the weight of Rodgers’s comments, Kimmel stated that he wouldn’t shy away from taking legal action if he continued. “Dear A—hole: for the record, I’ve not met, flown with, visited, or had any contact whatsoever with Epstein, nor will you find my name on any ‘list’ other than the clearly-phony nonsense that soft-brained wackos like yourself can’t seem to distinguish from reality,” Kimmel tweeted. “Your reckless words put my family in danger. Keep it up and we will debate the facts further in court @AaronRodgers12.” 

Pat McAfee Apologizes

While we could imagine that Rodgers plans to remain mum on the topic, Pat McAfee came through with an apology for Jimmy Kimmel. During his monologue on Wednesday’s episode, he acknowledged the harm that came with Rodgers’ statements. “Some things obviously people get very pissed off about, especially when they’re that serious allegations,” McAfee said. “So we apologize for being a part of it. I can’t wait to hear what Aaron [Rodgers] has to say about it. Hopefully those two will just be able to settle this, you know, not work wise but be able to chit chat and move along.”

He added, “I can understand why Jimmy got incredibly upset, yeah, I definitely completely understand that, especially with his position, but also I think Aaron is like, ‘hey, this guy has said some stuff about me in his monologue’ and he’s just trying to shit talk.”

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Jimmy Kimmel Threatens Aaron Rodgers With Legal Action Over Jeffrey Epstein Comments

Jimmy Kimmel has warned Aaron Rodgers that he could pursue legal action against the sidelined quarterback after Rodgers made comments tying Kimmel to Jeffrey Epstein. During his weekly appearance on The Pat McAfee Show, Rodgers specifically named Kimmel as someone who “doesn’t want” a soon-to-be-released list of names previously redacted in a civil suit filed before Epstein’s death to be made public. The purported list contains around 150 names of people allegedly associated with Epstein and his sex crimes. However, it was not a comment that Kimmel took lightly.

“For the record, I’ve not met, flown with, visited, or had any contact whatsoever with Epstein, nor will you find my name on any ‘list’ other than the clearly-phony nonsense that soft-brained wackos like yourself can’t seem to distinguish from reality. Your reckless words put my family in danger. Keep it up and we will debate the facts further in court,” Kimmel wrote on X. Neither Rodgers nor ESPN have commented on the quarterback’s claims.

Read More: Aaron Rodgers Says He Didn’t Ask To Be Taken Off Injured Reserve

Kimmel-Rodgers Feud Reignites In Headache For Disney

Jimmy Kimmel and Aaron Rodgers have never been on good terms. Rodgers’ anti-vax stance, as well as his views on things such as UFOs, have previously been a source of mockery on Kimmel’s late-night show. In March 2023, Kimmel called Rodgers a “Green Bay Whack Packer” after Rodgers suggested that the recent declassifying of UFO-related documents was an attempt to distract people from the potential of the “Epstein List”. Despite this, their feud has never been as serious as it is now.

However, the issue also creates a major headache for Disney. Rodgers made his comments on ESPN. What’s more, while ESPN does not pay Rodgers to appear, Pat McAfee, an ESPN employee, does pay Rodgers an appearance fee. Meanwhile, Kimmel’s late-night show airs on ABC. Both ABC and ESPN are Disney subsidiaries, creating an in-house nightmare now that the two broadcasters are seemingly butting heads. This remains a developing story and we’ll have any updates as and when they emerge.

Read More: Aaron Rodgers Blasts Jets For “Chicken Sh*t” Locker Room Leaks

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Magic Johnson Speaks On Travis Kelce & Taylor Swift

Magic Johnson has said that the NFL is “very happy” with Travis Kelce dating Taylor Swift because of the amount of revenue it has generated. Magic’s comments came during an appearance on Jimmy Kimmel. Specifically, Kimmel had noted that Magic should “get one of those Commanders to date Taylor Swift. It seems like you make so much money.”

Swift Fever has taken over the league after the singer and Chiefs tight end got together nearly two months ago. The early weeks of Swift’s attendance at Arrowhead Stadium led to a massive surge in viewership from young women, a demographic that the NFL has never previously captured. While the Kelce family isn’t overly thrilled about the attention that the relationship gets, the NFL has continued to milk it dry in terms of content and coverage.

Read More: Taylor Swift Supports Travis Kelce After He Breaks Chiefs Franchise Record

Is Travis Kelce Joining Taylor Swift In South America?

Meanwhile, Kelce had a fun little exchange with his brother this week about whether he would be hitting up the Eras Tour in South America. However, Traylor fans will be left disappointed as Kelce refused to give a definitive answer. “I might just say f-ck it and just go somewhere nice, I don’t know. My skin’s getting real pale so I gotta go somewhere sunny,” Travis said on New Heights when asked by his brother if he had plans for the Chiefs’ bye week. When Travis added that he wanted to be “closer to the equator”, Jason shot back with a “South of the equator?”

Taylor Swift, Travis’ girlfriend, will be in South America for the next few weeks for the final 2023 shows on the Eras Tour. November 9-11 see her in Buenos Aires. Meanwhile, she will spend November 17-19 in Rio and November 24-26 in São Paulo. There had been speculation as to whether Kelce would join Swift in at least Argentina, given his convenient bye week. The other dates seem improbable given the Chiefs games on November 20 and 26.

Read More: Travis Kelce Dodges Several Taylor Swift Questions, Refuses To Answer If He Loves The Singer

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Diddy Reflects On Experience With Toad Venom Psychedelics

Diddy recently reflected on his experience using psychedelic toad venom, also known as 5-MeO-DMT, during an appearance on Jimmy Kimmel Live! on Monday. “I’m the type of guy [who’ll] try anything once… with an ambulance outside,” Diddy joked on the show. “Eric didn’t see what I saw,” he added, referencing Eric Andre, who previously discussed his own experience with the drug with Jimmy Kimmel.

Diddy continued: “I had an experience. I had heard Mike Tyson and Joe Rogan talking about it. You know, you have to be in the wave of just like, into looking for what’s passed here sometimes to be into psychedelics. But, it’s something that I wouldn’t recommend unless you are using my man and I’ll give y’all my man’s number after this. I wouldn’t advise it to anybody, but I could just speak on my experiences. I took the chance.” From there, he added that he won’t go into detail about how it went. “That’s the rules,” he said.

Read More: Diddy Addresses Will Smith Fight Rumor Over Jennifer Lopez & Jada Pinkett Smith Threesome

NEW YORK, NEW YORK – MAY 01: Sean “Diddy” Combs attends The 2023 Met Gala Celebrating “Karl Lagerfeld: A Line Of Beauty” at The Metropolitan Museum of Art on May 01, 2023 in New York City. (Photo by Mike Coppola/Getty Images)

Diddy had previously confirmed that he experimented with psychedelic toad venom during an interview with The New York Times. “I’m a big old hippie,” he told the outlet. “I had a little bit of ego left in me. And when I did toad, I officially had a ego death.” After describing the drug as life-changing, he added: “It’s a journey you don’t even remember. The best way to describe it is it’s just like a opening of a whole different portal, without you seeing it open.” Check out Diddy’s latest comments on the trip below.

Diddy Discusses Trying Toad Venom

Elsewhere in the Jimmy Kimmel Live! appearance, Diddy discusses his Halloween costume, the rumor that he once tried to fight Will Smith, and more. Be on the lookout for further updates on Diddy on HotNewHipHop.

Read More: Diddy Reportedly Banned From Dressing As The Joker By Warner Bros. Entertainment

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Jimmy Kimmel Net Worth 2023: What Is The TV Host Worth?

Born in Brooklyn, New York, but raised in Las Vegas, Nevada, James Christian Kimmel’s initial engagement with entertainment was not in the dazzling lights of the television studio but on the airwaves of radio. He started as a radio host while studying at the University of Nevada. The witty and magnetic personality, later a hallmark of late-night television, was first recognized over the radio. But like all great entertainers, his eyes were set on more prominent stages, and he moved to television, setting the foundation for a career that would eventually be appraised at an impressive $85 million in 2023, according to CAknowledge.

Late Night Laughter Leader

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA – MAY 23: Jimmy Kimmel and David Letterman attend the Netflix FYSEE David Letterman ATAS Official at Raleigh Studios on May 23, 2019 in Los Angeles, California. (Photo by Emma McIntyre/Getty Images for Netflix)

Jimmy Kimmel’s entry into television was nothing short of serendipitous, co-hosting Comedy Central’s game show Win Ben Stein’s Money, earning him an Emmy for Best Game Show Host. This early success was merely a glimmer of what was to come. Then, he struck gold with Jimmy Kimmel Live! in 2003, a show that became synonymous with late-night entertainment. From political satire to hilarious celebrity interviews, the show epitomized modern late-night television. Remember the “Mean Tweets” segment? Those viral videos were thanks to Kimmel’s knack for understanding the pulse of popular culture.

Kimmel’s fearless approach to humor, including roasting presidents at the White House Correspondents’ Dinner, has earned him critical acclaim and a special place in the landscape of American comedy. With two Primetime Emmy Awards under his belt, the achievements are not just in accolades but in influence.

Father, Husband, Prankster: Personal Life & Highlights

jimmy kimmel
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA – OCTOBER 13: (L-R) Jimmy Kimmel, Anthony Anderson, and 24kGoldn attend Wheelhouse and Rally’s celebrity and content-creator private fund raise event, with rare collectibles on display from sports, culture and history on October 13, 2021 in Los Angeles, California. Rally is a Fractional Investing Platform for Collectibles. (Photo by Tommaso Boddi/Getty Images for Wheelhouse)

Beyond the screen, Kimmel’s personal life is filled with laughter and love. Married to Molly McNearney, a co-head writer for Jimmy Kimmel Live!, he is a father to four children. His antics as a prankster extends to his family as well, and his children have been the subjects and accomplices of various pranks over the years. But Kimmel is more than just laughs. His heartfelt monologues, particularly one about his son’s congenital heart condition, resonated with audiences and shed light on healthcare issues. It was a defining moment that showcased his ability to blend humor with compassion, making the personal political.

The Man Behind The Laughs

jimmy kimmel
LOS ANGELES, CA – SEPTEMBER 09: Late Night TV Host Jimmy Kimmel and Molly McNearney and Daughter Jane arrive for the 8th Annual L.A. Loves Alex’s Lemonade at UCLA Royce Quad on September 9, 2017 in Los Angeles, California. (Photo by Greg Doherty/Getty Images)

Away from the spotlight, Kimmel has been astute in his business ventures. As a producer, he has backed shows that align with his comedic sensibilities. His production company, Jackhole Industries, has a history of innovative and successful programming. Further, Kimmel’s heart is as large as his humor in the philanthropic sphere. His charitable efforts include support for children’s hospitals and numerous humanitarian causes. He is more than a funny face; he is a comedian with a cause.

Conclusion

jimmy kimmel
NEW YORK, NY – APRIL 23: Jimmy Fallon and Jimmy Kimmel attend TIME 100 Gala, TIME’S 100 Most Influential People In The World at Jazz at Lincoln Center on April 23, 2013 in New York City. (Photo by Kevin Mazur/WireImage for TIME)

What emerges from Jimmy Kimmel’s narrative is the portrait of a man whose humor and humanity are intertwined. The dollars attached to his name may make for an interesting statistic, but the richness of his career and life goes beyond numbers. Whether making people laugh through a television screen or touching hearts with personal stories, Kimmel’s value lies in his ability to connect.

From the glistening roads of Vegas to the high-stakes world of Hollywood, Kimmel’s journey has been about taking risks, tickling funny bones, and never forgetting that the essence of comedy is, at its core, a shared human experience. While substantial, his $85 million net worth is but a footnote in a career that’s been as thoughtful as it has been entertaining. His real wealth is in the connections he’s made, the lives he’s touched, and the laughter he’s spread.

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Jimmy Kimmel Actually Didn’t Say Rihanna’s Name Wrong At The Oscars, Despite What Some Fans Think

Just days after Jimmy Kimmel hosted the Oscars, his talk show’s executive producer (and his wife) Molly McNearney is setting the record straight about how some viewers thought he said Rihanna’s name wrong during the show.

“We had two versions of the monologue,” Kimmel’s wife Molly McNearney told Variety. “One if Rihanna was in her seat, one if she was not in her seat. One if Rihanna had her baby on her lap, which she wanted to do. And one if her baby was not on her lap. A lot of our jokes were kind of at the mercy of people being in their seats.”

As it turns out, he was actually saying Rihanna’s name the proper way, which is to rhyme it with “anna” like “banana.”

“Jimmy is obsessed with pronouncing people’s names correctly,” McNearney said. “There is a guy at the show whose job is to find the pronunciations. We always find video of the person saying their own name on camera. And that is the way you pronounce Rihanna. There’s a whole interview with her about it.”

“Jimmy said, ‘I want to call her the way the name that she calls herself.’ And that’s how she says it in Barbados,” she added. “It felt funny to people. Now America knows how to pronounce her name, although they won’t. They’ll just assume Jimmy f*cked up but no, he did not!”

Even though the proper pronunciation of Rihanna’s name has been public record for over a decade now, people continue to say “Ree-awn-uh”… but not Kimmel.

Nick Cannon Responds To Jimmy Kimmel’s Oscars Jokes

Nick Cannon responded to Jimmy Kimmel making jokes about his kids at the 95th Academy Awards on Sunday night. Speaking with TMZ after the award show, Cannon says that he found them “hilarious” and can handle it. Kimmel had been discussing Avatar: The Way of Water when he remarked, “Disney spent 2 billion dollars to make this movie. Just to break even, all of Nick Cannon’s children had to see Avatar four times.”

“Nah, it’s hilarious. I created Wild N’ Out. I can hear jokes all day long,” Cannon told TMZ, before adding, “Kimmel’s my man.” When the reporter asked how many kids he’d like to have, Cannon joked, “I don’t know. Whatchu doing later?”

Nick Cannon On Stage In 2022

ATLANTA, GEORGIA – MAY 20: Nick Cannon performs onstage during opening night of Nick Cannon Presents: MTV Wild ‘N Out Live at Cellairis Amphitheatre at Lakewood on May 20, 2022 in Atlanta, Georgia. (Photo by Paras Griffin/Getty Images)

Cannon first welcomed twins with his ex-wife, Mariah Carey, in 2011. In the years since, he’s had 10 more babies with five other women. They include Brittany Bell, Abby De La Rosa, Bre Tiesi, LaNisha Cole, and Alyssa Scott. Most recently, Alyssa Scott gave birth to their baby in December 2022. Last month, he told Entertainment Tonight that he’s open to having more kids as well.

Nick Cannon was far from the only person Kimmel poked fun at during his time hosting the event. Perhaps most of all, Kimmel trolled Will Smith, who was banned from the event after slapping Chris Rock at last year’s ceremony. “We want you to have fun, feel safe and, most importantly, we want me feel safe,” Kimmel told the audience. “So, we have strict policies in pace. If anyone in this theater commits an act of violence at any point during the show, you will be awarded the Oscar for best actor and permitted to give a 19-minute long speech. But seriously, the academy has a crisis team in place. If anything unpredictable or violent happens during the show, sit there and do absolutely nothing. Maybe even give the assailant a hug.”

Nick Cannon’s Reaction

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Nick Cannon Was On-Board With Jimmy Kimmel’s Joke About His Kids At The Oscars

Nick Cannon is no stranger to people joking about his productivity. Andy Cohen joked that he should get a vasectomy, the paternity experts at Maury shared some suggestions of their own, and fellow comedian Kevin Hart even sent him a vending machine full of condoms as a prank.

So, when Oscars host Jimmy Kimmel joked that Nick and his kids were at least partly responsible for the record-breaking box office scores of Avatar: The Way Of Water, the multi-hyphenate father of 11 took it in stride. “Avatar: The Way Of Water was the most expensive movie ever made,” Jimmy noted in his opening monologue.

“Disney spent 2 billion dollars to make this movie. Just to break even, all of Nick Cannon’s children had to see Avatar four times.”

According to TMZ, when he was asked how he felt about the joke, Nick said he was on-board with the jokes, as he and Kimmel are close. After all, Nick started out as a standup comic himself, so he can handle being the target of a good roast.

In fact, of all the cracks about his seeming drive to populate a small country, some of the best (and strangest) have come from Nick himself. Last week, he teamed up with Kevin Hart to shoot a (probably fake) promo for a game show about women competing to be his seventh baby mama. He also cracked a few jokes over the holidays about the added pressure having so many kids puts on him.

Jimmy Kimmel Trolls Will Smith While Hosting The Oscars

Jimmy Kimmel joked about Will Smith slapping Chris Rock at last year’s Oscars ceremony while hosting this year’s 95th Academy Awards on Sunday night. Smith was not present in the audience as the Board of Governors for the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences banned him from all Academy events for the next 10 years. Kimmel also poked fun at Tom Cruise and James Cameron for not being present at the event, Steven Spielberg for allegedly never smoking weed, and many more nominees as well as attendees.

“We want you to have fun, feel safe and, most importantly, we want me feel safe,” Kimmel told the audience. “So, we have strict policies in pace. If anyone in this theater commits an act of violence at any point during the show, you will be awarded the Oscar for best actor and permitted to give a 19-minute long speech. But seriously, the academy has a crisis team in place. If anything unpredictable or violent happens during the show, sit there and do absolutely nothing. Maybe even give the assailant a hug.”

Jimmy Kimmel At The Oscars

HOLLYWOOD, CALIFORNIA – MARCH 12: Host Jimmy Kimmel speaks onstage during the 95th Annual Academy Awards at Dolby Theatre on March 12, 2023 in Hollywood, California. (Photo by Kevin Winter/Getty Images)

Later in the night, Kimmel warned that anyone who wanted to “get jiggy with it” would have to go through the Oscars’ new crisis team. The remark was a reference to Smith’s 1997 single, “Gettin’ Jiggy Wit It.” Kimmel also said that the show would go off without a “Hitch,” referencing Smith’s 2005 romantic comedy. Lastly, after noting the high number of Irish actors nominated for awards, he joked that the “odds of another fight on stage just went way up.”

The host’s jabs come less than a month after Chris Rock finally addressed the infamous incident in his Netflix special, Selective Outrage. “Everybody fuckin’ knows. Yes, it happened, like a year ago, I got smacked at the fucking Oscars by this motherfucker. People are like, ‘Did it hurt? It still hurts! I’ve got ‘Summertime’ ringing in my ears,” he said. Rock also joked about Smith’s wife, Jada, and her “entanglement” with August Alsina.

Jimmy Kimmel’s Jokes On Will Smith

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Jimmy Kimmel Details What He Will Do if Confronted During This Year’s Oscars: ‘Beat the S*** Out of Them’

Jimmy Kimmel Details What He Will Do if Confronted During This Year’s Oscars

Don’t think you’re going to run up on Jimmy Kimmel on the Oscars stage this Sunday. Speaking with The Hollywood Reporter, he said he would “beat the shit” out of someone.

“If somebody comes up on the stage and slaps me? Well, I size them up, and, if I’m bigger than they are, I beat the shit out of them on television. And if it’s the Rock, I run,” Kimmel said.

Kimmel’s playful comments after the Oscars revealed they would have a “crisis team,” in an effort to avoid the issues of last year.

Of that concept, Kimmel says, “I wish I knew. I’ve not been involved in that. I guess I’m the last thing they’re worried about,” he said about what it might entail, adding that he should “at least know what was discussed.”

In an interview with TIME magazine, Bill Kramer, Academy of Motion Picture Arts CEO, was asked what measures had been put in place for this year’s Academy Awards to ensure that no unexpected situations arise. He said a good host, such as Jimmy Kimmel, who is hosting this year, is good because they are used to dealing with live TV and can navigate unexpected situations. He also talked about the formation of the crisis team.

“But we have a whole crisis team, something we’ve never had before, and many plans in place. We’ve run many scenarios. So it is our hope that we will be prepared for anything that we may not anticipate right now but that we’re planning for just in case it does happen.

Because of last year, we’ve opened our minds to the many things that can happen at the Oscars. But these crisis plans—the crisis communication teams and structures we have in place—allow us to say this is the group that we have to gather very quickly. This is how we all come together. This is the spokesperson. This will be the statement. And obviously depending on the specifics of the crisis, and let’s hope something doesn’t happen and we never have to use these, but we already have frameworks in place that we can modify.”

– Bill Kramer

You can read the TIME interview here.

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