Features
Fivio Foreign Says the ‘King of New York’ Title Doesn’t Matter. He’s Aiming Higher.
Fivio and Nicki had been in talks about collaborating since he reached out to her in January 2021. Pulling out his iPhone, he shows me messages between the two. “I hit her up a year ago, like, ‘Yo, let’s do some drill shit,’” he says. “She’s like, ‘You got something in mind?’ So we’ve been going back and forth trying to get that perfect song, and I feel like we got it. She’s a super genius.”
Fivio didn’t get home from the music video shoot until 8 a.m., and the day before that, he was out celebrating his 32nd birthday with close friends and family. Now, he tells me the celebration will continue later tonight with a dinner party.
The sleepless nights will likely last a little longer, especially now that his debut studio album, B.I.B.L.E. is finally dropping. It’s a milestone he’s been working toward for the past three years. Back in June 2019, Fivio Foreign, born Maxie Lee Ryles III, was a new artist who had just dropped his breakout anthem, “Big Drip,” which would become a quintessential song of the Brooklyn drill movement. He followed the single by signing a deal with Columbia Records and dropping two EPs, Pain and Love and 800 B.C.
“You’re the King of New York? Well, I‘m trying to be the King of the World.”
Remembering those early days, Fivio says he was in a hurry to conquer the industry. “When I first came out, I thought I was ready to drop. Like, ‘Give me an album now,’” he recalls. Now, though, he admits, “I definitely wasn’t ready,” explaining, “I was new to the game. I didn’t really know a lot about the industry, about rollouts, about getting the buzz up and having hot moments. I was enjoying it, but the more I learned, the more I felt like it wasn’t my time.”
Now, the Fivio Foreign who is sitting across a conference table from me, stirring his ramen, is a little more seasoned and “a little more ready,” as he puts it. “I could be a little better, but I’ll take it,” he shrugs, diving into a conversation about his debut album.
At first glance, the album’s title (B.I.B.L.E.) hints at heavily religious themes. Fivio identifies as a Christian (“I’m not living like a perfect Christian, but I’m very religious and I pray a lot,” he says) but he clarifies that the title is representative of a larger concept.
“Naming the album B.I.B.L.E. was like a metaphor,” he explains. “The Bible consists of a whole bunch of stories from people—huge stories—and things that happened. When you read it at some points in life, you can learn from it and deal with your life through the Bible. I feel like my [album] is kind of like that. It’s a whole bunch of stories in my life. People can relate to it, and there’s a lot of motivational shit to take from my life.”
The project includes songs that were recorded as early as two years ago, but to Fivio, the road to his debut has been much longer. “I feel like I’ve been working on this album my whole life,” he says. “To get to this point being as nice as I am, being able to make the song, and being able to put together a project that I like… Yeah, I’ve been working on this shit all my life.”
B.I.B.L.E. is a drill album at its core, Fivio confirms, but with the inclusion of mainstream features. Fivio says he wants to take the subgenre to the next level. “People put drill artists in a box,” he says. “I want to show people, there’s reggae drill, there’s pop drill. There’s all types of drill. As one of the front faces of drill, I feel like it’s my responsibility to widen it. Let’s make everybody able to do drill rap.”
The album has 17 tracks, featuring appearances from major artists like Quavo, DJ Khaled, ASAP Rocky, and more. Out of the 16 features on the album, though, none of them are Brooklyn drill artists. Fivio says his collaborator choices weren’t made out of malicious intent; he just had another vision in mind.
“Right now, I’m elevated,” he says. “For sure, I want to help people and put people on… But I wanted to have elevated, lit songs. I was thinking about going viral.” Fivio moves his noodles around with a fork before clarifying, “I got a couple [drill] niggas on the deluxe.”
With Fivio’s quest for virality in mind, it should come as no surprise that he called on Kanye West to serve as the album’s executive producer. Fivio hasn’t known Ye for very long, but he refers to him as a “big brother.” The two first met around in the summer of 2021. Fivio had just returned from jail following a weapons charge and visited Funk Flex for a freestyle on Hot 97, in which he rapped, “Now I got a question for the reverend/ If you a killer, do you go to heaven?”
“People put drill artists in a box. I want to show people, there’s reggae drill, there’s pop drill. There’s all types of drill.”
Kanye, who was in the process of recording his own album, Donda, reached out to Fivio after watching the freestyle. “He said that’s the type of bars he needed for his shit,” Fivio recalls of their initial conversation. “[Ye] called me up and we got busy. We go viral every time.”
The first song they made was “Off the Grid,” which debuted during the first Donda listening event at Atlanta’s Mercedes-Benz Stadium in July 2021. Kanye was living out of the stadium while he completed the album, and he flew Fivio to Atlanta shortly after their phone conversation to record the track.
In the booth with Ye, Fivio tried out a new approach, spending more time on each bar than his usual off-the-dome style allows. “It’s a crazy experience,” Fivio remembers. “I go in the booth, right? I hear the beat, I freestyle a couple of lines, probably like three or four bars. Step back, listen to it. Hear the beat again, then we go back in and put another three or four bars. I’m not spitting the whole thing. I’m changing things, figuring it out in my head. I never wrote it down.”
Kanye gave Fivio a few pointers throughout the process, but Fivio was allowed ample space to do his own thing. “[Ye] basically just let me work,” he says. “He likes when I keep rapping. He wants me to rap for a long time.”
Fivio’s verse received rave reviews, and for many listeners who hadn’t been tapped into the Brooklyn drill scene, it was an eye-opening moment, revealing Fivio to be a skillful rapper with more range than anyone realized. Though some of his day-one supporters griped at the new revelation, Fivio says he isn’t trippin’ about the newfound support. “When I was doing songs like ‘Big Drip,’ they were mostly ad-libbed and shit. That’s mainly what people wanted at that time,” he says. “I know what they want from me now, so I just gave them what they wanted. I just be testing shit out. I’ll test some raps out, give them some good bars. If they like it, I’ll keep giving it to them.”
Kanye’s approach to executive producing Fivio’s album was similar to the leadership style he displayed during the making of “Off the Grid.” Fivio says Kanye joined on after most of the album was recorded, only adding to the finishing touches. “It was already a masterpiece, but what [Ye] would do is, he would call in a feature if I needed it. He would structure the beat a little bit different,” Fivio explains. “He perfected it. He’s a painter. So, he makes everything more beautiful and made it even more of a masterpiece.”
Kanye contributed vocals to the album’s single “City of Gods,” alongside Alicia Keys. The track, which officially dropped on Feb. 11, is an ode to Fivio and Keys’ hometown of New York City, and it feels like a more menacing cousin of Jay-Z and Keys’ 2009 anthem “Empire State of Mind.” Two weeks after its release, Fivio, Kanye and Keys performed the track for the first time at the Donda 2 listening experience in Miami, going viral once more.
“It was crazy,” Fivio remembers. “There were like 30,000 people. It was like the biggest show I ever did.”
“Ye would call in a feature if I needed it. He would structure the beat a little bit different. He perfected it. He’s a painter. He made it even more of a masterpiece.”
The arrival of B.I.B.L.E. comes at an interesting point in the evolution of Brooklyn drill. The subgenre was kickstarted around 2016, but really skyrocketed to national attention in 2019, thanks to the success of Pop Smoke records like “Welcome to the Party” and “Dior” as well as Fivio’s “Big Drip.” The movement was putting New York rap back on the map in a major way, but Pop Smoke’s tragic death in February 2020 left a hole in the scene. In Pop’s absence, other artists have kept the sound alive, thanks in large part to the efforts of Fivio, but the fate of Brooklyn drill is still uncertain in some eyes.
When asked about the current state of Brooklyn drill, though, Fivio sounds very confident. “It’s big,” he says. “No other genre is growing faster than drill. I feel like so many artists want to be a part of the drill scene. I appreciate all of the artists that are reaching out to it.”
Despite its upward movement, the subgenre faces hurdles, with its biggest critics accusing artists of having connections to gang activity and promoting gun violence. The NYPD has notoriously kept close tabs on Brooklyn drill artists, going to long lengths to limit their festival appearances and keep them from playing live shows inside city limits.
Fivio chooses his words wisely when discussing his current interactions with the NYPD. “I guess—no, I mean, not really,” he replies when I ask if he’s experienced any pushback from the department during his album rollout.
“In the beginning, we had to learn,” he elaborates. “We had to grow. In the beginning, I was going up to the club. Then this guy sat me down and told me, ‘Yo, listen, chill out.’ If you play by the rules, you’ll be alright. If you’re going to be a leader, you’ve got to learn how to lead. You can’t be a leader and then police don’t fuck with you. I see them, and I try not to get in no trouble. They try not to give me no trouble. We stay out of each other’s way, because when I’m coming, I ain’t starting no trouble. I’m here to make money, put a roof over me and others.”
The police aren’t the only ones closely surveying the subgenre. In February, Mayor Eric Adams urged social media companies to ban drill videos after his son, an employee at Roc Nation, showed him local music videos. “I had no idea what drill rapping was, but I called my son and he sent me some videos, and it is alarming,” the mayor said during a February speech. “We are alarmed by the use of social media to really over-proliferate this violence in our communities. This is contributing to the violence that we are seeing all over the country. It is one of the rivers we have to dam.”
Following his comments, Adams took a meeting with Fivo and other local rappers, including Maino and B-Lovee, to open a dialogue about the subgenre.
“I knew Eric Adams already because I did a peace walk in New York with him,” Fivio tells me. “So I reached out to everybody, and then Maino was like, ‘Yo, I got you a meeting. He wants to sit down and talk.’ Me and Maino called a couple other people up. Moreso, he was saying he’s not really trying to stop drill rap. He said with the media and internet, it’s making it seem like he wants to stop drill rap. But he was saying he’s not trying to do that. He just don’t want niggas incriminating themselves, making Black culture look like wild animals, making the city look like it’s not safe for people. So what he was saying was, ‘Change the narrative.’”
Improving the perception of the Brooklyn drill scene was a big motivator for Fivio as he made B.I.B.L.E. “That’s what I’m doing with this album, for sure,” he declares. “That’s where I feel my responsibility is, to take the negativity away from it. To show them the album and be like, ‘Yo, listen, we got a song like this. We got Alicia Keys singing, ‘New York go easy on me.’ That’s more like the opposite of violence. But it’s saying this is drill rap, though.”
Whether you call him “King” or not, Fivio Foreign is undoubtedly one of the most recognizable faces coming out of the city right now, and he’s still based in New York (although he plans on moving at some point). For that reason, he feels immensely indebted to the city that raised him. “[I have a] big responsibility,” he says. “If I’m going to be the artist coming out of New York, I’m going to make New York look like it’s the place to be,” he says. “I’m going to make sure they keep it a good, safe place. I want to make it possible for other new artists to come out of New York.”
If everything goes according to plan, B.I.B.L.E. will go down as that bright of a moment for both New York and Brooklyn drill, Fivio tells me, as our conversation draws to a close.
“If I do what I’ve got to do, [Brooklyn drill] is going to stick around,” he says. “People are going to start to realize we can do it all. Once it’s widened up a little bit more, people will get it. Drill rappers are the pop stars.”
Tom The Mail Man Is Here For the Long Haul
Your newest album Sunset Visionary, Vol. 2 just dropped along with a headlining concert in your home state. What has this been like for you and what have you been most excited for your fans to experience with this album?
I just want them to hear the fucking music. You know what I’m saying? Because I think there’s a perspective of the artist that I used to be that’s still out there. And I like that because nobody really knows what to expect with this album. I’m really just excited to move on and go further into the alternative space. And being able to have my own show—I’ve never had that before, it’s super dope. I really don’t go out much, especially with the pandemic, so I don’t know what my fanbase looks like in real life. It’s crazy!
How does SV2 serve as a follow up to SV1? How are they connected?
More or less SV2 is showing progression. But, the SV saga started randomly. I wanted to try a different style of music and I wanted it to be straight acoustic. I guess what I consider to be rock or pop music. It’s just very fun, upbeat, and heavy in emotion. It was really just supposed to be an acoustic project though. And then I never planned for volume two, but then I was making a lot of music at the time and I was like, “Damn, this could be the follow-up.” It just came together.
Throughout your discography we’ve seen you shift more from rap and hip-hop to a more emo, punk rock, and pop sound. How did this transition happen for you? Was it a natural progression?
I think I was just inspired. It’s funny, like three years ago, I got put onto Falling In Reverse, Panic! At The Disco, and My Chemical Romance. Everybody grew up on that music, but I’m just now getting hip to all of it. And then it’s really Ronnie Radke who inspired me to go in this direction. And while I was in the middle of making SV2, I listened to Olivia Rodrigo’s whole album. That changed the direction that I wanted to go with it too. And then also MGK has been putting out some really fire songs. I don’t know, I’m not an MGK hater! I fuck with the music. I’m just here for the music. Mod Sun is also fire. KennyHoopla also really fire. I think I’m just inspired by seeing other artists do great things.
Mod Sun had really amazing things to say about you and your music in a joint livestream a few weeks ago. How does it feel to get positive feedback from other artists you respect?
It’s just a surreal moment to be noticed, if that makes sense. Because being an independent and a somewhat underground artist you don’t know who really knows who you are or if anybody knows you at all. So it’s crazy to have someone say, “Oh yeah, I’ve been watching you for six months, dude you’re sick.” Saying this publicly and using your platform to show me love, that’s crazy. I appreciate that.
Would you consider any of your songs to be “party” music?
I didn’t know if anybody else got that vibe, but “Over,” that’s like a party song. I want people to dance. Watching early ‘90s videos and seeing how people used to be back in the day, it seemed like people actually danced and had fun and were really moving at social gatherings. That’s how I want my shows to be. So, I have to make the music to make them move physically, you know what I’m saying? Bring that energy. That’s what I want.
You started out as primarily a rapper and developed into more of a singer. Was there a moment where you became comfortable singing? Was that a struggle for you or an easy adjustment?
I was definitely always singing it in private. Publicly, I tried to do a little video when I was in college and that got received as well. I still didn’t really believe that people thought I could sing. Then “Come Over’’ came out. Everybody was just like, “Oh my God, he’s a singer.” And I’m like, “Wait, I’m a singer?” Then coming to this project, I had more confidence. The whole project is basically singing. I got a little bit more confidence, but I honestly thought my voice was shit. It’s a process.
Do you have any advice for people who are lacking confidence in their art?
More people need to talk their shit. That’s the energy I like to carry out. I would like for people to try to embrace being more confident. Even me, I have an issue with that myself. If you’re good at something and you’re confident in it, talk your shit. It’s okay. It’s not offending anybody, you’re not talking shit about nobody else. You’re just talking about what you think about yourself and taking pride in it. Do it. Do it. Talk shit more.
You’ve sampled the Foo Fighters, Studio Ghibli soundtracks, movies like Paid In Full and more. What’s your process for finding and incorporating samples?
For the Paid In Full sample, that was from a very crazy speech in that movie. It was just a movie that I grew up with. And then for the tone of the song, both things completely meshed and it made sense. It’s like bringing two loves from two separate things and trying to see if they fit together.
If SV2 was the soundtrack to any movie what would it be?
Nobody’s going to guess this. I would hope not. But for this specific album it’s The Wolf of Wall Street. I say it because there’s highs and lows. It’s a hell of a lot of different feelings throughout that movie. Leo is fire.
With songs like “Death Note” and “Evangelion,” it’s clear anime and manga have had an impact on your music. How has your love of anime affected your music and added to your imagination/storytelling process?
A lot of what I do musically just happens naturally. And I try to lean towards things that I actually like. Anime is so good at bringing out the emotion in things that real people can’t do themselves.
Like if I go on the stage and start crying and being super genuine about it, most people will say, “You look like a bitch.” But, if I say it on a song poetically, and then I put a cover with a character expressing the emotions, then the message is received that way. Way better than me having a HD album cover of tears going down my face. It’s not the ‘90s, I’m not Trey Songz. This is not that.
So your art is like a characterization of yourself in some ways?
Yeah. There’s a lot of metaphors in the art. For example the bears [on the cover], I haven’t really said much about that. They’re both called Leo, there’s a blue bear and there’s a red bear. The blue bear is more of a representation of my innocence and my childlike side. In a lot of the covers you see, I’m wrapping myself around the bear, trying to protect him.
So Tom the Mail Man is the outer shell that gets the beating, gets the bruises just to protect the innocent. But on the SV2 cover he’s holding Leo upside down like in a threatening way looking beaten and bruised. SV1 was like a kid that was hopeful, with a full sense of justice and a strong will. And then SV2 is real life. I’ve been beaten. I’ve been fucked up. This is how I feel now. I’m not going to listen to the angel on my shoulder anymore because I’ve been hurt already and I want revenge.
Anime is like that. It has so many layers to peel back that I just want to bring that into my own music. For instance, Demon Slayer is not just a happy, go-lucky anime with pretty colors and beautiful animation. There’s some, really dark, gritty stuff in there, and it brings light to a lot of people’s real life situations.
For instance most people look down on thieves. Anime has taught me not to look down on thieves because you don’t know what their situation is. Have you ever been put in a situation where you really had to steal something? I like thinking about things like that. What I want my music to do for others is the same as what anime does for me.
What’s your favorite anime right now?
Right now I’m going to just give it to Attack On Titan because this is the last season. That last episode was godly. It’s a masterpiece. And Demon Slayer is right up there. They had a phenomenal season just in terms of full quad, full animation story, pacing and everything. It was fire. It was amazing.
You’ve said you also enjoy Shoujo anime. What draws you to that genre?
I love it. I’m a nerd. I just love romance. I love the little butterflies. I get it when the character’s crush gets a hint that they might like each other. My friend just got me a manga book for my birthday, this Orane series. This is the most gut wrenching romance. It’s amazing.
A while back you sent your video for “Lil Tommy” into a No Jumper livestream. What made you decide to do this?
Well, at that time I had to find a way to market my music by myself because I didn’t have a manager. That was just one of the tactics. I’d go in there and save up money at whatever job I was working. Roughly it comes like $100, $150 to put your video out there. So I would go to channels that I watch with big audiences, and then pay every time.
I would go to Lael Hansen. I would go to imdontai. I would go to No Jumper. Whoever had a live stream and a decent amount of people in it. That was on the goal with the No Jumper thing. Other people saw it and that’s what I wanted. Other people really got to judge it right there, decided they like it and then go back, and then turned it into a moment. That’s why I did that a couple times.
You’re in Atlanta right now, what’s that like as an artist in an area that has so much musical presence?
Yeah. I’m like 40 minutes away from where my friend stays in the center of Atlanta. I’ve been on the scene and I’ve been around all the Atlanta rappers that are really from the city like Wiley from Atlanta, Kenny Mason, Daniel Novello. There’s a lot of super talented guys out here. But, I’m not really out there. I just stay in my little bubble and just exist. I don’t bother anybody until I’m out there, unless I have a show. I’m not really super social, honestly. I just stick with my little group of people and then make music.
We’re not in high school no more. I’m just trying to make good music. I’m trying to make music that lasts years and years and years and become a household name for life. I want to be in music history. I can make friends in music if you’re a dope person in real life and it’s not just like, “Hey, I got a persona and I’m this guy.” I don’t give a fuck about that. If you’re dope as a person, that’s it.
Do you feel like being different from the typical Atlanta sounds as an advantage or disadvantage?
I definitely use it to my advantage. A lot of people don’t necessarily make the type of music that I make. If you make niche songs, it’s easier for people to get behind you. My position works for me. It works because I’m from Atlanta, but I’m not really that typical Atlanta guy.
Are you excited for Atlanta [TV Show] Season 3?
That shit is about to be sick. That shit is about to be sick as fuck. Gambino is an amazing writer. He’s an amazing actor. He’s an amazing comic. He’s an amazing singer. He’s everything.
If you could have one artist or or director create a music video for you, who would it be?
I’m going to give it to Tyler. Visually, he’s fucking insane. Lil NAS X is up there because he’s amazing with his videos. I’m going to give it to Ronnie Radke too. Really, that’s the order. Yeah. I go Tyler first.
You speak about having this dark and light duality in your art and music. How did this begin for you and what’s the reception been like?
I like mixing very dark with very beautiful imagery. I get called a Satan worshiper so much! It doesn’t make sense. It’s just the type of art that I’m into. And you have kids that are on the internet hearing a lot about symbolism. And they think if it has a cross, or if it has horns, or if it’s black, it’s scary devil shit.’” I’m just like, “Bro, it’s just art. Shut up.”
Artist development takes time. We’re in this super microwave era, where it’s just like artists are just supposed to pop out and be fire.
You’ve been independent for years—do you have advice for artists trying to do it on their own?
In my opinion it’s about if you can play the long game. It seems like everybody’s blowing up every week and you’re still not going anywhere. You got to be able to weather that storm and build a strong discography before you start messing with labels. Have a vision and care about every aspect.
Before I started reading books on this, I listened to a lot of Russ and a lot of his interviews explaining things about the music industry that you might have not known. People don’t know just because you signed to a label doesn’t mean they’re going to be able to get you playlisted. You have to have direct relationships with people at Spotify. A lot of labels these days are like “Hey the way we do marketing is TikTok.” All you’re doing is putting money into TikTok to hopefully get a blow up moment? And that’s your marketing strategy?
Artists can market on their own. There’s people that do posts for $20 or $100 dollars. Save up money and make calculated decisions. That’s really it. And then find your style. It took me a while. I feel like I’m in my pocket now more than I’ve ever been in my entire career. And it’s been almost 10 years of me doing this, me really actively trying to be an artist. So weather the storm and really figure out yourself and educate yourself.
Artist development takes time. We’re in this super microwave era, where it’s just like artists are just supposed to pop out and be fire. There’s so much you have to learn. Even like getting stage presence. What are you going to do? Are you going to build sets? Are you going to be a dancer? How are you going to do to entertain a crowd?
People just need to take their time and enjoy what they’re doing rather than feeling like they need to blow up. It feels good to know my parents can’t say shit to me, the people on the block can’t really say shit to me, because there’s proof [of the work I put in].
There are things that come with just instantly blowing up. I had a deal offer when I was really fresh, around 2020, 2019, and it was for five or six albums or projects. And it’s like “Damn bro, I would’ve still been with you right now.” I got flew out for the first time to L.A and L.A is like all sparkly and pretty to me because I’m from the country. They were paying for everything. I didn’t have to spend a dime on food, we went to fancy restaurants. They buttered me up and then gave me this contract and I could see a lot of people falling for that.
When did you know that music was the path you wanted to take?
I’ve been writing for almost a decade now. I think I’m seasoned enough as a writer at this. I really figured it out when I was 16. And then made this promise to myself. I was in the back of my class, not really paying attention. I was like, “Yo, if I died trying to pursue this music, I think I would be fine.”
Worst case scenario I’m homeless on the side of the street playing on the guitar, doing whatever to get money. And I think I’d be okay with that. I was Christian and I was a sports kid growing up. So I was very straight edge. A lot of my friends are older and they’re just now getting out of college. I still feel like I don’t really know what I’m going to do. I just got fortunate. My lust for music was just crazy.
I’m in this game for longevity. I only want to do music, and I don’t have to go pick up some side job when I’m 30 or 40 or 50 because I got washed up and I had one hit. No, I want to be around this for a long time doing whatever I want to do.
Uncle Waffles, Amapiano Princess, On Her Rise To DJ Superstardom
First Impressions of Fivio Foreign’s New Album ‘B.I.B.L.E.’
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Best song?
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Biggest skip?
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Best thing about the album?
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Worst thing about the album?
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Best feature?
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What does the album say about the current state of New York Drill?
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Overall first impressions?
Best New Music This Week: Pusha-T, Jack Harlow, Fivio Foreign, and More
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Fivio Foreign f/ Quavo, “Through the Fire”
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Lil Baby, “In A Minute”
Vince Staples, “When Sparks Fly”
BIA f/ J. Cole, “London”
Omar Apollo, “Evergreen”
42 Dugg & EST Gee, “My Yungin”
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Photo by Jalin “Hype” Morgan (@donthypeme)
Dora Jar Is Floating Through a Whirlwind
How does it feel to be back in London?
Oh man, I love London. It feels like a full circle every time I come back because it’s the first place I ever recorded in a studio. I learned a lot in the first year that I lived here; how to become the captain of my own ship. Right out of high school you’re just following all of these things you’re told to do, and I’d dropped out of music school. When I came to London I was in this in-between phase of my life where I wasn’t making money doing music.
My Dad was like, “what are you doing?” but I knew that I had to be here. And I fell in love with someone. I left to go back to America and really focus on the music, and now every time I’m back it’s like being home again. It’s like a home away from home and I think I’m going to move back at some point.
How does London and its culture compare to other places that you’ve lived in, for instance New York and LA?
It just feels totally different actually, it’s hard to compare. I don’t like LA. I like working there but if I have a day off in LA I am sad. When I lived in New York I always babysat all of the time and that was my focus, and then I would play music in my stairwell and run around all full of electricity. I’d just feel so energetic there and like you’re just a little cog in the machine.
But London is a nice mix. When I land in LA, suddenly I feel like I’m having this big identity crisis. But then I realize that everybody who lives there is. London is just more chill. Also I feel like the London culture is just a little bit more at peace with the negativity of life naturally, which is kind of a relief because you don’t have to hide. You can complain and not be fake positive.
Are you excited for the show tomorrow?
I keep having to remind myself! Because when you’re in a mode of rehearsal, you’re just so in that headspace. I just feel like wherever I am I’m totally absorbed, and tomorrow I’m going to be shitting my pants.
My first show ever was in September, and people were singing [my songs] and I couldn’t believe it was happening. It’s just crazy. It is terrifying, but that’s why I have to remind myself it’s literally for all of us in a room together. I’m not trying to impress anyone. I’m just giving an offering and they’re giving me an offering, and it’s just this exchange of some mysterious beauty.
Can you remember the first record, or artist, that you really fell in love with and why they resonated?
Yeah, it’s a mix of things. Foo Fighters were the first band that I ever fell in love with. I got the chance to see them live at a benefit concert that was to raise money for my sister’s school for kids with cerebral palsy. She was in a wheelchair and couldn’t walk or talk her whole life. And we both were just obsessed with the Foo Fighters and Dave Grohl in particular. We were in love. When I learned guitar I would just YouTube tutorial Foo Fighters songs and then make up my own songs over the chords that I would learn. Because I would never have the patience to learn someone else’s song, I always wanted to get my own thing out. It felt more personal and also it felt like Dave was teaching me how to play guitar so that was a big one.
Also Outkast with ATLiens! That changed my life. I was a bit cynical when I was young; I was like why is everyone singing love songs all the time? And then Outkast was talking about things that I didn’t understand but using words that were like, “cooler than a polar bear’s toenails, oh hell.” That opened my mind to the possibilities of what words could be and how fun it could be to do poetry.
Can you remember the first song you made?
I’ve always been singing. I remember actually taking my mum’s tape recorder and recording a jingle. I was really young, 5 or 6, and I remember thinking, “This is going to be a jingle for Raisin Brand, the cereal.”
Was there a moment further down the line where you felt that making music became a more serious possibility?
This year. I was always just frustrated, wondering how is this ever going to happen, what is the industry, who are these people that control these things? And then I realized that it’s not really like that, it’s just human connection and people with passion just intertwining. Meeting my managers really changed the game because I’d had this belief that no one wanted to help me and I was like I can’t do this by myself. All I do is write songs and I don’t know what else to do.
I know there’s a whole thing where they say that all pop stars are high on the narcissism scale because you know it’s all ego and personality. And I’ve always felt this funny thing about attention. I didn’t want to ask for attention but then I realized that it was a part of myself that I had to accept. Really what wanting attention is is wanting connection, and so finding a way to be at peace with that takes a minute.
I read that you went to that you went to a religious school as well as a boarding school?
Yes I went to an Episcopal school. Every day we went to church for 45 minutes, which was actually amazing. Think about it; you get to school and rather than go straight into have you done your homework or not, you’d get to go to chapel and sing. It’s dark and cozy and smells like incense, the organ is playing. That was always so dramatic and filled me with this otherworldly sense. So I don’t know, I wouldn’t consider myself a Christian now but I respect the stories. I find that there are many truths in the world and we just have to respect each other. But the school was tiny, there were 19 kids in my grade for 10 years.
Would you consider yourself a spiritual person?
Yes. I had a breakthrough with meditation when I was 18 where I realized that if I close my eyes and breathe, my heart stops racing and I feel like I’m more capable of feeling love for myself and other people. I also really believe in being honest with yourself because for a long time I wasn’t. In high school I had a lot of trauma that I hadn’t dealt with and because I had all of that inner trauma to work through I couldn’t write, I couldn’t be real. Maybe I was fun to be around and I had a good time, but that didn’t have any lasting power. So, through meditation.
I didn’t believe in myself for the longest time and it wasn’t that I knew that I didn’t believe in myself but it was like this law of honesty. If you’re not accepting that you’re hurting, you’re lying to yourself. And how can you believe in yourself when you’re not believing in what you’re feeling and owning it. I think it’s what this past EP came from too—being comfortable with the pain, comfortably in pain. Yeah, it has to go there.
I watched this interview where you mentioned seeing life as a performance for angels. I’ve kept thinking about it since. Can you share more about that idea?
Cool, I love that! I think it came from a way I coped with being lonely in my past, in childhood sometimes. At first it started kind of spooky, like are there ghosts around me? Am I being watched? But then I was like wait, I don’t feel like there’s anything menacing watching me, I actually feel like there’s something encouraging… Maybe it’s just space. But then I think with meditation I’ve come to realize there’s just so much mystery and magic works when you believe in it and doesn’t work when you don’t believe in it.
So, if I believe in something that makes me feel comforted, like if I’m alone in my house singing and I know that I’m not just singing for myself, that feels good. And my sister is alive all around me all of the time and I know that she’s laughing at things. Maybe I’ll mess up and I’ll get frustrated and she’ll chuckle, and I know that’s she’s like I see through your bullshit and that’s such a grounding relief for me. So yeah, it always goes back to that and I’m glad that you think about it too. It is motivating! And I always do better work when someone’s watching me so I might as well believe that I am witnessed.
There’s been a frenzy around your music on the label-side, and I’m curious what it’s been like to navigate the music industry as an independent artist?
I think the cute thing about it is you realize the industry is just all of these people that love music, and that’s really sweet. You also hear horror stories about the ones that give you bad deals. With any profession there’s going to be scumbags, but I don’t want to focus on that. But also there are new demands, like now it’s not just the music. Now it’s like photos, promotion, interviews…
Last night was a funny moment. I got this great thing where I had to say “thank you BBC for playing my song” and I had to send in a voice note and video so they could play it on the radio and it took me like half an hour to say it. [Laughs] At first I was in the craziest voice and it was never going to work. I just kept going back to when I was in middle school listening to the radio and it was like, “Hey I’m Lady Gaga.” And that’s what I mean about the ego thing—I find it so hard to take myself seriously. It just makes me overthink shit, I’m like okay whatever I’ve just got to say it and sound stupid.
You mentioned the new demands and I feel like a lot is expected of artist in 2022. What has your experience been like?
It is. I used to post things on Instagram just because I felt like it. If you go way back on my Instagram, you’ll see. I’m very pun oriented. One time I put an onion on my ring and it was like, onion ring. Dad jokes forever. I am a dad at heart. But now I have to post because I have a show coming up and I need to remind people. It’s this practical thing, it’s a tool now, which is cool and I like how it’s useful but I also want to maintain the realness and… Whatever it is.
Did you ever imagine you’d be in this position?
I always knew I wanted to be a singer. I even wrote in my journal when I was seven: I want to be a famous singer, but my Mom says fame isn’t good. So that was an idea that I had in my head, that I don’t need to be famous as long as I’m a singer. And then I realized that was my deep want for attention when I was young.
There are a lot of layers to your sound and various influences which come through. How would you describe it?
My sound is like a house with a lot of different rooms in it which are decorated totally differently. One room is wood, one room is metal, one room is glass, one is marble. It’s everything I love in a collage, and I find it really hard to define. I just feel like it’s all truly my imagination having fun.
Actually I was really energized by this one critique of me before I had released anything. This guy who’s a big manager came to listen to some of the songs I had and he said, “Well you’re still trying to find your sound.” And I was like, “Huh, b*tch?!” I have my sound and you don’t get it so. I kind of went even further into the nothing is the same after that.
My sound is like a house with a lot of different rooms in it which are decorated totally differently. One room is wood, one room is metal, one room is glass, one is marble.
Going into the new EP comfortably in pain, what was the core idea that you wanted to get across?
I think that idea of pain and accepting it and finding comfort that we’re all in our own different kinds of pain. We don’t always have to try to relate to each other through how we’re similar, but be interested in the differences in what causes our pain and connective vulnerability.
Your writing style is very vivid. Where do you find inspiration?
Disney films are major. Me and my sister would watch one film for a month straight, over and over again. So I’ve downloaded all of the Disney movies and so many strange things happen in those, like Pinocchio is a puppet who comes to life who gets eaten by a whale who builds a fire inside of the whale which is impossible but they make it happen to make the whale sneeze and come out. And then there’s the cricket who’s his conscience. So crazy. Anyway I find a lot of inspiration from that and literally just melody itself and how much emotion I feel from listening to beautiful melodies. I’ll work on a melody for like an hour in a hallway—six notes—and I’ll rearrange them as many times as I can just so that it feels perfect. And usually it’s the simplest thing that’s the most perfect so that’s the lesson I’m learning.
Do you have a dream in particular that’s always stuck with you?
Oh so many, so many. But one in the past year really stuck with me. It was a koi fish and it was hugging me really tight. And I was looking down and thinking, wait this fish is going to stop breathing because it’s not in the water, and so I was worried and trying to pry it off so it could live. But then I saw the boots of this fisherman wading in the water, and he said, ‘don’t worry, they like to hold on’. And then in the moment he said that I felt so much love for the fish, I was like what is going on. And I woke up so happy and then I made “Polly” that day. So, some nice blessings.
What are you excited for next?
I’m excited to make the lyric booklet and I really want to spend time on making it personal and sending it to the people who really want it. Excited for more shows and getting more theatrical with them. I love the circus, like Cirque Du Soleil, and I want to make my shows feel like you’re in a Leonora Carrington painting. She’s very dream come to life type artist.
Do you have ideas for how you’d bring that into your live shows?
For example in the ”Multiply” video I was really inspired by a dance performance where there’s a woman with rope tied around her waist and she’s attached to a boulder and she’s continuously running away from it and getting stuck. And so I used that concept in the “Multiply” video where I tied myself to a tree and kind of did that. I’ll tie myself to something during a show, and I want to hang upside down in a trapeze and play guitar. I don’t want to just walk around, I want to do things with height.
I’m an air sign, I’m double Libra with a bunch of air, and I have no water in my chart which is really weird. I think it’s my overcompensation, I need aquatic themes and I think about the ocean a lot but I’m not made of it I guess. I want to just float all of the time.
