Paul Wall has remained a pillar in the Houston community and a legend in his own right. The Swishahouse alumnus has played an integral part in developing Houston’s sound and preserving its culture. Paul Wall’s latest album, The Great Wall, released in December, is a testament to his efforts. It’s a body of work that celebrates and conserves the very attributes of Houston’s lifestyle that allowed labels Rap-A-Lot and groups UGK to affirm the South’s position in hip-hop. However, it also looks forward at the new generation of rappers — the Travis Scotts, Don Toliver, and That Mexican O.T.s of the world.
“As the sound evolved, I’ve always felt like… preserving that sound, representing for it. You know, to show the newer generation how we used to do it but at the same time, give people my age or even older a sense of nostalgia to remember that this is where we came from – our Houston roots,” Paul Wall told HotNewHipHop of The Great Wall.
At his core, Paul Wall is a historian of all things Houston. That’s especially the case when it comes down to the sound that emerged from his city since the late 80s. He witnessed the rise of Street Military and the proliferation of chopped-n-screwed tapes across the city as a teenager. Eventually, he was passed the torch, which he held with pride. However, as his mainstream success faded away, and a new crop of artists emerged, Paul Wall became an elder statesman who found as much gratification in seeing the traditions of his city carry on among the younger artists as he did when he came out the gate with Chamillionaire.
“We can still go beyond, we can expand. We can be a Sauce Walka or a Don Toliver or Travis Scott or Megan The Stallion or Beyonce or Lizzo. All of these – Maxo Kream, Tobe Nwigwe,” Paul Wall says. “All amazing artists where, all of them, you hear the influence of the Houston sound that I might have come from but you also see where they took it and they expanded it to a whole other level.”
In 2023, Paul Wall earned a new crop of fans after teaming up with That Mexican O.T. on “Johnny Dang.” His verse became a trending topic on Twitter. It served to remind the masses of the stronghold he had in the mid-aughts. Many have credited Paul Wall’s contribution to “Johnny Dang” for shaping That Mexican O.T.’s career trajectory. However, the “Grillz” rapper feels like it’s the other way around. “They don’t love him because he got a song with Paul Wall. They love him because of who he is. That’s how I know that his success isn’t attributed to me at all. I attribute my newfound success to him,” he said.
We recently caught up withPaul Wall to discuss his new album, The Great Wall, his upcoming collaboration with Metro Boomin, missing out on Megan Thee Stallion collab, and so much more.
This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.
Via Publicist
HotNewHipHop:Talk to me about the significance of the title. Of course, one would assume that it references the Great Wall Of China. However, I wanted to know why this title felt appropriate for this body of work.
Paul Wall: It originally came from a local newspaper here in Houston, an interview I did with them years back maybe 10-15 years ago, where the headline was “The Great Wall of Houston.” I always liked that, and I originally was going to call it the Great Wall Of Texas – expand it a little bit from Houston just to Texas.
As I put it out there, the excitement started going. But when Trump became president, it was all this talk about the border wall. So anytime I would mention my new album’s comin’, The Great Wall Of Texas, people kind of look at me sideway, like it was some type of reference to the border wall, which it has nothing to do with. You know, like I said in the song with Bun B, “You know my name is Wall, but I’m known for building bridges.” That’s why I kind of took that off. I was just like okay, let me just call it The Great Wall instead of The Great Wall Of Texas. I don’t get any sound way sideways looks for that.
But really, I just wanted it to be like, the best representation of me. The themes in the songs and the music, a lot of it is just about me wanting to be the best version of myself that I can be. And I just try to convey that through the lyrics or through whatever lessons in the song that might be there, where it’s not a greatest hits kind of thing, it’s more of ‘This is the greatest version of me of who I am,’ you know?
As much as you’ve grown as an artist, this album feels like it depicts your lifestyle accurately at this stage in your life.At the same time, it payshomage to the rich history of Houston’s culture. Do you consider this album as a way of preserving the Houston culture that you grew up on, even as the city’s culture evolves with the new generation?
I love to see how the Houston culture has just expanded beyond just the monolithic culture that it was. I love that it’s expanded and that the tree of hip-hop that is Houston. Or the huge branch of the tree that is Houston now has significant branches branching off of that. The biggest reason, in my view, is the fanbase has expanded locally in Houston to be able to support all of the various styles that are here.
But in all of that, there’s a huge sense of pride to want to preserve the traditional Houston sound that I grew up in. I was born in ‘81 so from the 80s but really musically, the sound kind of started coming around ‘88-’89 with a lot of the Rap-A-Lot stuff and the Street Military, a lot of that kind of stuff. But from there, when it really started hittin’ was in the early 90s all to the late 90s.
As the sound evolved, I’ve always felt like, just like you said, preserving that sound, representing for it. You know, to show the newer generation how we used to do it but at the same time, give people my age or even older a sense of nostalgia to remember that this is where we came from – our Houston roots. We can still go beyond, we can expand, we can be a Sauce Walka or a Don Toliver or Travis Scott or Megan The Stallion or Beyonce or Lizzo. All of these – Maxo Kream, Tobe Nwigwe. All amazing artists where, all of them, you hear the influence of the Houston sound that I might have come from but you also see where they took it and they expanded it to a whole other level.
But for sure, that’s where my core, where my heart is, even with Oiler Mobb, everything we do. We call it that because that was the era we were raised in. And it’s not called Oiler Mobb because of a football team, only the fact that that was when the football team was here. And when it left, it was almost like the beginning of the end of a Houston era. So that particular portion of the Houston era when the Oilers were here in the 80s, 90s, whatever, all of that is what Oiler Mobb represents for us. It’s the traditional core Houston sound that came before. But, for sure, I love how it’s expanding. I’m a huge supporter and fan of all the new sounds, the new styles, and the new artists that are just taking it to another level.
I could sense that they’ve had some sort of influence on you on this project. “Dig These Blues” feels like something that I could hear Travis Scott on. How much are you looking towards the new generation for inspiration?
That’s why I love listening to a lot of the newer artists because you can hear their influences through what they’re saying, whether it’s with the lyrics or slang or how they’re saying something. Whether it’s the instrumentation they’re using in the beats or that they’re choosing to rap on or whatever. They’re flipping the old song like T.T.O.D. Bumpy Johnson, from the Dallas area where he’ll flip like “Diamonds & Wood” by UGK. Or [the song] he just did with Dorrough, “Star Baby,” how they flipped “Bar Baby” [by Big Moe], stuff like that.
So you’ll see with a lot of these newer artists where their influence will come from. You know, you can see what they were raised on or what inspired them. The same way that it inspired me when I heard “Bar Baby” or “Diamonds & Wood.” It inspired the f*ck out of me, too. So to see that it’s still inspiring younger artists is dope.
I love the new artists, man. Just to see everything they’re doing. And they’re fasho proud to be from Houston. Like you see Sauce Walka and Sauce Twins. The whole TSF movement is all about representing H-Town. When you see them do it, it’s them doing it in their own way. It’s them wanting to put their own stamp on Houston. Their own representation, like, ‘Alright, we want to be different.’ And I completely understand that because, when I came out originally – when I first came out with me and Chamillionaire, our goal was we wanted to be different. We don’t want to be like everybody else. We don’t want to sound like everybody else and look like everybody else. Yeah, we’re inspired by them. Yeah, we want to represent a lot of the same elements that they’re representing but we want to do it our way.
And that’s the same exact thing I see when I see Sauce Walka. He’s doing it his way but he’s still representing the same elements, the same key core morals or Houston values or whatever. You know, he’s still doing it. It’s just that he’s doing it his way. And man, I be proud as f*ck when I see him doing his thing because it’s just nice from a fan perspective. I’m so happy to see how he’s evolved. And how they, you know, he just took the torch and ran with it. He put about three or four torches together and made it a super torch.
You hear Don Oliver. Everything he incorporates, even just the tone of the sound of his voice. When he’s singing or rapping or whatever it’s called that he’s doing, it almost sounds like a Screwtape. Then, when you hear Don Toliver screwed or slowed down, it really enhances and brings out all of the flavor that he has and his style. It fasho is like, man, this is what I’m talking about.
As somebody who walked in it and came in it in the past as a rapper. I’m still doing it but I’m just saying somebody who’s done it is coming in as a fan to [walking] this path and this journey of holding the torch for however long. Even if it’s temporary. To be able to hold the torch for Houston hip hop and represent – when you pass the torch on, you never know what’s gonna happen with the torch. Is the torch gon’ go out? Are they gon’ gonna drop the torch? What are they gonna do? Are they gonna put out with a fire extinguisher?
But when you see somebody like Don Toliver doing his thing like that, man, that’s when we get hype. It’s like watching CJ Stroud throw a touchdown. We stand up and cheer for that. We get excited for that, man, because this is like it’s out of my control where it goes, completely.
You know, I didn’t I didn’t invent or create it. Like I said, I only held the torch temporarily. I’ll for sure support, you know, [provide] mentorship or just any type of support I could give to any of the younger artists, but it’s out of my control. It’s not up to me where the sound goes. And what happens to the sound is really up to the fans, and the artists that come after me, wherever they want to take it. But fasho, to see where it’s at right now, man, it’s very exciting. As somebody you know, who’s come from, the past of the Houston hip hop, even I’m still doing it, man, it’s very exciting to see where we’re at and the direction we’re going.
You and Metro Boomin recently confirmed that there’s new music coming from the two of you. What was it like working with him and when could we expect that collab to drop?
That’s somebody I’ve known for a long time. Of course, I’ve been a huge fan of him for a long time, he’s been killing it always. I always want to work with Metro, man. You know, especially when you be hearing some of the other songs he got with people, it’s like, ‘man, that boy there, he somethin’ special, man.’
We talked about it over the years. I’ve always been somebody where I don’t try to force collaborations, whether it’s with a producer or another artist. I miss out on some collaborations that way. Because maybe that particular artist or producer will have a window of opportunity to work with each other. The next thing you know, they get a new record deal and it is out of their hands. It’s up to their management and their label and they got the whole plans that they got goin’. You know, that’s just how the game goes.
I definitely try not to force it or rush like I don’t want to collab just so I can say I collab’d with you. Of course, I do want to collab with a lot of these artists like that. Oh, I’d love to collab with him but I want it to be special. I want it to be something memorable, not just [like] I just checked the box because I got a song with him or they got a song with me. That’s kind of how it was with Metro.
The first time we met, there was an energy there where we definitely felt. Like, man, we could make some dope together. But you know, neither one of us really rushed in. As time goes on, you see each other here and there, we speak on it. ‘Hey, man, this is gonna be the year man we finally gonna get in the studio.’ And then, last year was really where it was like, we need to do this. What we waiting on? We just need to just do it. Like, I know we both want the circumstances to be perfect. At the same time, why don’t we just let’s get the ball rolling on it in some type of way?
But for sure when he tweeted out something about my verse on “Drive Slow,” that kind of ignited the music collaboration to get started. Because when he tweeted that out recently like a few weeks ago, that was when I hit him like, “Man, come on, what’s what’s up? What are we doing? Send me your address, I’m in Houston. What city are you in?” I’m coming right now you. And he was like fuck it, come on.
He sent me some beats and you know, from there, I don’t know. I mean, hopefully, I would love to do a whole album with him or as much music as the computer will allow us to record. Shit, I’m trying to record on every beat that he ever made, you feel me?
I don’t know what any of the plans are. You know, I’ll 100% leave that up to him for what he wants to do or what he has or what his thoughts are. We kind of getting it going on a lot of recording of it. I’m actually in here working on it now, right here in the studio. When I’m done with the interview here, I’m about to get right back at it, working on these Metro beats.
Shout out to Metro Boomin, man. For all I know, he might have another Spider-Man soundtrack in the works. He always doing some major so you know, whatever the opportunity that he would want to do with any of it or the plans are or if everything we do, he says, “Nah, let’s just start all over from scratch.” I’m 100%, you know, following his lead and I’m just really grateful for the opportunity to work with him.
What type of production did Metro send? Soul? More trap?
It’s several beats, actually. He actually sent me several different styles. It’s almost like he sent me one or two beats of every style to see like, okay, what am I feeling? What’s gonna speak to me? You know, and and I almost feel like you know, that’s gonna be the direction we dive deeper into.
At the same time, this kind of reminds me of when I signed a record deal with Swishahouse. When Swishahouse first originally started, it wasn’t a record label; it was just mixtapes. It was two DJs making mixtapes. As I developed as an artist, I got a record deal with somebody else. Well, throughout all of that, Swishahouse became a record label and then I went back to Swishahouse as an artist signed to the record label.
When I went back to Swishahouse signed as an artist to their record label, T Farris was like, “Aye, we’re working on a compilation. Here’s a beat CD with eight beats on it. Whichever ones you feelin’, rap on. Whichever ones you’re not feeling, you don’t have to. You want to do a hook, a verse, do the whole song, do just a long-ass freestyle – whatever you want to do, do it. It’s all good. Here’s the eight beats whatever.” And I was just so excited and hungry to be working and signed as an artist on Swishahouse, I rapped on every single one of them beats, and the last one was “Still Tippin’.”
This is what it reminds me of when Metro’s like, “Alright, here goes some beats. Rap on whatever you’re feelin’, whatever speaks to you. You want to do a verse, freestyle or hook? The whole thing? Just do whatever.” I’m like, shit, I’m rapping on every one of these mothaf*ckas, like, what do you mean? You think I’m gonna let Metro Boomin send me a beat and I’m not gonna rap on it? You think I’m gonna let Metro Boomin send me a beat and I’m gonna say, “Well, this ain’t really my style” or I want something a little different. Man, whatever he gives me, I’m comin’ with it
He definitely sent me a wide variety though. Some of them I heard and I was like, “Man, I wonder –” you know, because I don’t know what his thoughts are or his direction is. Some of it, he’s just planting the seed and he’s letting me run with it, but I don’t know. He might have certain ideas but they all are – they Metro Boomin beats so you already know, they top tier, the highest.
You and That Mexican O.T. share amazing chemistry. First, on “Johnny Dang” and now, “Covered In Ice” on The Great Wall. What is it about That Mexican O.T. that makes each of your collaborations so exciting and brings out the best in you?
I mean, I don’t know, but I can’t take any of the credit. I give all the credit to him. You know? I definitely think that he for sure brings something special out of me. Me working with him, even on the song that I did on my album, “Covered In Ice.” When I first did the song – sometimes I’ll do songs like this: I hear a beat and I like the beat but I don’t know where to go so I’ll just kick a freestyle on it. So that’s what I did. I did two freestyles on it that had a real laid-back kind of flow.
And as I’m going through my song, saying, “Which song would That Mexican O.T. sound good on?” That one was like, even though my flow on there didn’t match his flow, the beat and the hook kind of was like, okay, I can just hear him going off on here and he did. He went the f*ck off.
When he sent it to me, and I heard it, I was like, “Oh, hell no, ain’t no f*cking way I’m letting my verses go out there.” So I fasho went back and redid my verses but it wasn’t 100% until after he put his flavor on it that it brought that out of me. I kept the same verse. I actually had two verses, I combined them into one and I sped it up. Like how I was rapping real fast like how he rapped. At first, it was like a real slow flow. Like a slow freestyle, just kind of like how “Dig These Blues” was. “Dig These Blues” was kind of slow, it wasn’t a whole lot of words.
That’s how “Covered In Ice” was but when That Mexican OT sent me his verse, my boy was saying, “You redoing your verse, right?” He said “You ain’t keeping them same verse, are you?” I was like, “Hell no!” When I changed it, I kept the same verses. I just like sped it up and reworded it slightly but you know it fit perfectly. So, I don’t know. It’s just something about him, with his energy, with that style.
Man, he’s been so welcoming to me. A lot of people give me credit because I’m the OG or because I came out before. I look at [like] I just came out before him. It’s not like I’m bigger or better than him. I’m an artist who came out before him. I hate when I see artists who are established or came out before the newer artists and they just hold they nuts on ‘em. They lil’ bro ‘em and make them think that you gotta like, kiss the ring and you know, they gatekeep everything. That sh*t is just so wack to me. Just because you came out first, that gives you an obligation or responsibility to show them the way. I hate when they do that but that’s just something they do and a lot of times, people will do that just to hang on to their relevance.
If you are one of these young artists working with one of these established artists and you listen to growing up all your life, you’re gonna feel like it’s an opportunity of a lifetime. You’re going to feel indebted to them or grateful to them but really, you don’t realize at the time, that these people using you. They fell off, they using you to stay afloat and that’s the first thing I told That Mexican O.T. when we was in the studio. I was like, “Say man, when this comes out, they might tell you – somebody who don’t know you – they might tell you, ‘Oh, how does it feel? Paul Wall put you on.’ But don’t worry. When they ask me, I’m gonna let them know I ain’t put him on. Shit, he brought me back.”
I mean, I never stopped. I’ve been putting out albums every year for the past 10 years but being real about it, nobody gives a f*ck, you know? I’m just being all the way real about it. I put the items out, my fan base might care. My pure diehard fanbase will care but the mainstream didn’t give a f*ck. As soon as I do a song with That Mexican O.T., now they care so shit… I can’t take none of that credit.
I hear people say, “Oh yeah, man, all you gotta do is get Paul Wall on the song.” Of course, they’re showing me love. They’re not trying to belittle That Mexican O.T. or anything, they’re just trying to give me flowers. But I got allergies, I don’t like flowers. I mean, sh*t, I feel you and maybe I did add a little flavor to the song but I did 1000 features. They didn’t go nowhere. So you can’t credit me for the success of the song.
Maybe, it’s the combination of two energies get together and spark something special. But even then, I can’t say that because when you look at That Mexican O.T.’s success that he’s having, when he does shows across the whole country or wherever he’s going, it’s sold out. He got fans with his face and name tattooed all over the body. Tons of fans with his face tattooed on their ass, on their shoulder, on their arm. I’m talking like he got a diehard fan base that loves him. They don’t love him because he got a song with Paul Wall. They love him because of who he is. That’s how I know that his success isn’t attributed to me at all. I attribute my newfound success to him.
I just made him some grillz other day. Shit, you know, of course, I never stopped making grills but usually, I really just let Johnny [Dang] handle that. You know, I just focus on my music and let Johnny handle the grill side of the business. Of course, we’re still partners in business together, and I still do it, but for the most part, I let just Johnny handle that. But ever since I made That Mexican O.T. some new grill, now they blowin’ my phone up like crazy. I’m like God damn Johnny, shit. I need an assistant again, for my grill orders. It’s getting out of control.
Man, just working with somebody like him – he’s so talented, bro. And, you know, there’s a lot of talent out there. Like I said when I talked about that window opportunity, there are a lot of artists that are on the rise whereas an established artist or artists who came before them, you might have a window of opportunity to work with them. And if you don’t capitalize or take advantage of that window opportunity, some of these artists blow the f*ck up and are like choose world-renowned, number-one mega popstars, and you don’t get a chance to work with them no more and it’s not because they don’t want to work with you. It’s because they’re signed to a record label that won’t allow them to work with you.
And I can give you plenty of examples of that – Megan The Stallion. I’ve known her before she even signed her first record deal. Just watching her come up and then to see how huge she is now. Sh*t, of course I want to do a song with her. I’ve always wanted to do a song with Megan Thee Stallion but you know, our styles aren’t necessarily similar styles so I don’t want to force something where I’m just forcing doing a song just do I could say I did a song [with her], but my window opportunity, it was a few years ago and she’s so huge [now]. She’s like Beyonce-level now, shit. Or Travis Scott or Don Toliver. These are huge mega stars, these are worldwide – Lizzo. These are icons.
It’s safe to say that Scar Lip had a big year. The Bronx raptress has had countless memorable moments that have been documented by social media throughout the year. Recently for example, she had a chance to perform at Sexyy Red’s show and the crowd went crazy. Her viral track “This Is New York” helped catapult her into the limelight, receiving national attention from some of her idols. She’s gotten love from multiple prominent figures in entertainment, including some of her role models. Everyone from Cardi B, Boosie Badazz, and Shaquille O’Neal have acknowledged Scar Lip’s hard-hitting flow. Moreover, diving deep into Scar Lip’s journey throughout 2023, it’s been nothing short of a rollercoaster. Scar Lip, the rising star in the rap game, gave HNHH an exclusive peek into a chapter defined by highs, lows, and some real talk.
Moreover, this isn’t just a tale of wins. However, it’s a testament to Scar Lip’s hustle, growth, and the wild ride that’s been taking place over the last year. The spotlight’s blazing on Scar Lip, leaving an undeniable mark on the game. 2023 has become her breakout moment, a year where accolades, industry love, and banging collabs have propelled her to new heights.
Scar Lip Is Not Letting Up
ATLANTA, GEORGIA – OCTOBER 03: Scar Lip attends the BET Hip-Hop Awards 2023 on October 03, 2023 in Atlanta, Georgia. (Photo by Paras Griffin/Getty Images)
However, she doesn’t look like what she’s been through. The distressing incidents from the rapper’s early years profoundly influenced her present identity. At the age of 12, she experienced the loss of her mother in a hit-and-run car accident. Additionally, her brother inflicted a traumatic injury during her childhood, leading to the distinctive scar on her lip that she carries to this day.
As we chop it up in this Q&A, Scar Lip details what an incredible year it’s been for her. From kickin’ it with legends like Busta Rhymes to making moves on socials, Scar Lip gives us a backstage pass to her world. A world where grit meets talent, and where doing things differently is the name of the game. Keep reading to learn more about Scar Lip’s journey and what she’s looking forward to most in 2023.
HotNewHipHop: How do you feel about 2023, a year of abundance, lessons, and valuable experiences?
Scar Lip: This year has been a mix of highs and lows, but it brought tremendous growth and invaluable life lessons. I’ve learned so much about myself and the industry.
What were some of the most memorable moments for you in 2023?
Meeting Busta Rhymes and receiving a diamond chain from him was unforgettable. Also, being in the studio with legends like Cardi B and Mary J Blige, and having Cardi B bring me out on stage in Dubai, were surreal experiences.
How did you establish connections with industry legends like Busta Rhymes, Cardi B, and Mary J Blige? Was it all organic?
Social media played a significant role, but I was also proactive. I reached out through DMs, Instagram Live, and even approached Snoop Dogg. Being a fan of Cardi B, I took the initiative to connect.
ATLANTA, GEORGIA – OCTOBER 03: Scar Lip attends the BET Hip Hop Awards 2023 at Cobb Energy Performing Arts Center on October 03, 2023 in Atlanta, Georgia. (Photo by Nykieria Chaney/FilmMagic)
Why do you think it’s important to be public about your journey and story?
I want people to know that no matter where you come from or what you’ve been through, you can make it. Sharing my story is a way to inspire others and show them that overcoming challenges is possible.
How do you handle the overwhelming support and love you’ve received?
I’m incredibly grateful and cheerful about the support. Sometimes, I can’t believe how far I’ve come.
Any surprising moments where someone unexpected showed support? Definitely, Cardi B and Shaq reaching out were unexpected but amazing moments.
What can we expect from Scar Lip in 2024?
Look forward to new music, new opportunities, and more of me being myself and striving for greatness.
Do you have a favorite performance from this year?
The Vevo performance for “Artists to Watch” was special because it was my first live performance like that.
Was there a turning point or a super viral moment that caught you by surprise?
How would you describe your sound, and who is your target audience?
My sound is aggressive and high energy. I believe my audience includes both the youth and the older generation, especially those who relate to my background.
How do you connect with your fans, and why is that important to you?
Connecting with fans through live sessions keeps them engaged and builds a sense of connection. It’s crucial to maintain that relationship.
Any collaborations in the works for 2024?
Absolutely, collaborations are on the horizon. Get ready for some exciting projects.
Any final thoughts or announcements you’d like to share?
My new music, “Blick,” is out now. Also, keep an eye out for upcoming collaborations, including one with a favorite rapper (winks).
In the fast-paced realm of hip-hop, one name has been making waves and turning heads: 310babii. The LA-based rapper, whose meteoric rise began this summer with the viral hit “Soak City,” has become a force to be reckoned with. He sat down with HotNewHipHop to give an inside look into his journey, dreams, and the whirlwind of experiences that have defined his career so far. Moreover, all while still attending his high school classes.
As a high school senior, 310babii is living the dream he always wanted—to be a rapper. What started as a personal aspiration has quickly evolved into a full-fledged musical journey. His friends are riding shotgun as his biggest supporters. The excitement around 310babii is magnetic, and it’s not hard to see why. Drawing inspiration from heavyweights like Lil Yachty, Chief Keef, Gucci, and Drake, 310babii’s music is still uniquely his own. The dream collaboration? None other than Lil Yachty himself. In this exclusive interview, he opens up about the influences that have shaped his distinctive sound and teases what fans can expect from his upcoming releases, including a highly-anticipated album.
However, 310babii’s journey took an unexpected turn when his breakout hit “Soak City” caught fire, catapulting him into the spotlight. The track’s remix, featuring heavy-hitters Blueface, Tyga, Mustard, OhGeesy, and BlueBucksClan, and further solidified his position as someone to watch. The collaboration with these prominent West Coast rappers is a testament to 310babii’s rapid ascent and undeniable talent. With an album in the works and surprises up his sleeve, 310babii is set to disrupt the hip-hop scene in ways unimaginable just months ago.
Read the full interview below as 310babii shares his reflections on a reality that has transformed from distant dreams into a whole new dimension. Moreover, with a show scheduled at The Roxy on December 30th (also happens to coincide with his 18th birthday), this LA prodigy is gearing up to deliver an unforgettable experience for fans and cement his status as the next big thing in hip-hop.
This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.
HNHH: For those who are just getting familiar with 310babii, how would you describe and introduce yourself?
310babii: I would say I’m a young new artist, but I’m different and unique. I’m a breath of fresh air. I’m bringing a new flavor to the rap game that hasn’t been showcased. It’s never been any light shed on my type of style or sound. Bringing something different to the game.
I love that perspective. You obviously have a single right now that’s getting a lot of attention and there’s light being shed on it. What was your reaction to “Soak City,” making noise?
It was so much all at one time it didn’t feel real. After a while it was just exciting for what’s to come. TikTok!
That’s definitely exciting! How do you balance all of this being a senior in highschool and did you know you wanted to pursue music?
Yeah. That wasn’t the only thing I wanted to do, but I knew that was a step in it.
What’s been the reaction from your friends and family?
Friends are excited for me. And there hasn’t been any changes. But now I’m showing kids who are the same age as me that it’s possible. It’s possible to make some type of noise from where we come from.
Where does your inspiration come from?
I watch other artists. And I know I can do it too. I pull things from some of my favorite artists and see what I can come up with. Like a good plan.
Who are some of those artists?
Lil Yachty, Chief Keef, Gucci, and Drake. Lil Yachty is my dream collab.
What’s in the works for you right now? What can we be on the lookout for?
More singles! And definitely an album coming soon.
Anyone special on the album that can possibly be a feature?
Yeah I do. But I wanna roll it out the right way and surprise everybody.
Who are some people in LA who have supported you? Any West Coast artists who have showed love?
Tyga, OhGeesy, and BlueBucksClan. It was a little game they gave me. They just told me just being myself and staying true to myself. The whole city rootin’ behind me.
You linked up with Luh Tyler for a song together called “Walk,” and got a chance to perform it at Complex Con! How was that? And what’s the vibe like in the studio together?
It was fun and crazy. My manager knew his manager. I’d work with him again. We haven’t been in the actual studio together yet.
What’s some of your goals for the new year? And how do you plan on ending off the year?
Honestly, I just wanna keep working. I don’t have any specific goals. Just keep working and staying hungry. I’m focused on dropping my album and all I’m looking forward to. I’m in a whole different reality with music. Things that used to be problems for me aren’t problems anymore. Now I got like, champagne problems. Certain things that I would think about 4 months ago, I don’t even care about no more. It’s like I’m in a whole different reality. The industry is like a whole different dimension. I’m living life, and having fun. Everything is music. And it’s lit.
Balance might be the best word to describe Bas’ artistry, and we just got his best example of that yet. Moreover, he just released his new album today– his first in five years– We Only Talk About Real S**t When We’re F***ed Up. In it, the Sudanese-American MC from Queens discusses the heights of his career, the good times it’s brought, the struggles with love he still faces, and the breadth of mental and emotional tolls that this life takes on a star– and that life takes on everyone. There’s a lot to dissect from a sonic and lyrical standpoint here, with so many themes that are tackled with grace and vivid honesty over a wide variety of moods, soundscapes, and emotive pallets.
Fortunately, the Dreamville star spoke to us in this new interview about it all, and you’ll find a lot of insight into his process here. In addition, he goes over the dynamics within his legendary label and his close friends, the spirit of live collaboration, the social and humanitarian issues plaguing his family’s home of Sudan, and how he’s grown, learned, and processed his emotions through his craft. Bas is by no means an easy rapper to box in, but this conversation yielded a strong sense of constance in every style and life aspect he faces. He enjoys it all with the same level of humility and passion, and that’s a rare sight in today’s world.
While stuck in heavy traffic in São Paulo for a performance, the 36-year-old still hopped on a call to discuss his new album, talk about his favorite movie of the year, and give us a compelling slice of his amazing career. Why persevere through it all as an industry artist and deal with all the deafening noise it brings? Well, because of the balance he found within it, which makes him fulfilled, happy, and free.
This interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.
Kgotso Aphane for The Fiends
HNHH: Bas, I wanted to dive right into We Only Talk About Real S**t When We’re F***ed Up. I feel like this is very much a statement album from you, and one that really sums up a lot of your artistic values. How did the concept of the album come about, and what inspired some of the material, especially given the distance between this and Milky Way?
Bas: Probably the genesis of it was when I did “Risk” for FKJ. He kind of inspired me, for his project, he had some things he wanted to do that I found inspiration in. [Considering COVID-19], these careers have kind of grinded to a halt, like everyone else. Everyone’s routine, their social life, everything was kind of disrupted, and I just found us having these conversations that we had never had before, you know? These are, like, guys I considered my friends for 20 plus years. Brothers, you know, like family, and they were expressing these things and I was expressing these things to them. I just was like, “Wow, this is just something meaningful, this is something relatable. This is something that I want to find a way to bring to an audience.” While still kind of protecting people’s identities, but it was more so the things that we’re going through, the themes of the conversations, these moments we were going through. I wanted to find a way to approach every song kind of from that level.
Do you have a favorite song of yours from this time, whether it was in the writing process or in the recording process?
Oh, man… I don’t know if there’s one favorite. The last song I did was the intro, “Light Of My Soul,” which is produced by Boi-1da. I think I was kind of chasing that [concept] chasing it self-consciously. So I think when that one came along, it just kind of let me know that I had tied that last ribbon and came full circle. Obviously, with the outro being “Wait On Me” and everything I’m discussing on that record, I just felt like it was the perfect bookend.
Speaking of “Light Of My Soul,” I did want to ask you about a particular bar that I thought was really interesting off of the album, which was when you talk about “not blaming them boys anymore” after you mentioned that people were stealing from you and Cole. Does that resonate for you when you think about the album’s wider themes and how you were thinking about each song?
It’s funny, man, me and Boi-1da were having this same conversation. He made a statement that I just loved. He was like, “Sometimes, it’s hard not to put on the Venom suit.” You know, like, you try to be a stand up guy. You try to do as good as you can by others. But sometimes it’s tempting to feel like you’ve been done wrong, and to put on the Venom suit and let go of all those… But, you know, it’s important not to let them compromise you and yourself. Even that line, like, I’m not mad at those dudes. It’s a shame, but that’s just a weakness in people, you know what I mean?
This has been a really big year for you, Bas, whether it’s artistically or personally. When you look back at some of your favorite memories that really defined this year for you, particularly around the creation of this album, which stands out to you?
I would just say there was a lot of live music that went into this album. I did some sessions with my boy, Linden Jay. He introduced me to Lydia– well, I actually knew Lydia, she’s part of Jungle, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Jungle. They contributed a lot to this album. Lydia is on maybe five records and Linden producing, they have kind of a collective from London. We did a lot of sessions just going in and kind of doing jams. I’m writing songs in a voice note, and I’m just kind of watching them and all of what they do. It’s like a refreshing departure from getting a beat and writing to it, or someone coming in the studio and making beats.
In a sense, it was really refreshing to create in that environment. I think it pushed my artistry. There’s a bunch of times we linked in L.A., we linked in London. We ended up doing “Diamonds;” that was me using the juxtaposition of their soulful sound with a Jersey bounce that my homie Depth did the drums on. So it was kind of fun to expand my sound in that sense. Obviously, a lot of people I work with, whether it’s FKJ or Cole, T-Minus, Diesel, you know, we’ve had a rapport already. But I think every album, I’m looking for a new wrinkle, and they definitely helped provide that and inspired me and pushed me in a new direction.
The reason why I asked you is because HotNewHipHop is doing an Advent Calendar series where, leading up to Christmas, we’re gonna do a retrospective on the year with a lot of different artists, interviews, lists, stuff like that. With that in mind, what’s some of your favorite media from this year? I know you play a lot of video games, but it can be like an album, a movie, a good book… What were your media obsessions throughout the year that inspired you or you just had a lot of fun with?
Oh man, Oppenheimer. Loved Oppenheimer, that was a great cinematic experience. You know, I always draw a lot of inspiration from film. I mean, on Milky Way, I sampled a few movies. That’s just like a headache to clear; I had to kind of learn that lesson. I feel like the way directors kind of build their worlds is something I’ve always admired and try to do the same when it comes to creating albums. I like to build these cohesive landscapes. Obviously, Christopher Nolan’s a G when it comes to that, so I think Oppenheimer was definitely a very inspiring piece of media this year for me.
Gotcha. Did you do Barbenheimer by any chance?
Nah, I didn’t, honestly. We were in London doing some press when it dropped. I caught, like, a 10AM ticket to see Oppenheimer. It was, like, the last seat so we just kind of lucked up.
You’ve also been doing a lot of performances around this time. You’re in São Paulo right now, and you were recently in South Africa at the Rocking The Daisies festival with some familiar faces. What do you think is one thing about performing overseas for artists that other artists or the media don’t talk about as much? Or something that maybe surprised you about the experience of switching between.
With doing Rocking The Daisies and going to South Africa, I think Africa as a whole is just really slept on from a live show perspective, you know? I think the fans there are just as rabid, if not more excited, to see us. They have a lot less access, you know, so I guess there’s less entitlement to it. Or less, like, “seen it all before” kind of vibe that sometimes you might get in New York City or L.A., where you get to see all your favorite acts whenever you want, damn near. It’s cool to get that energy out there and just build. That’s why I brought a few of the homies last year and this year we brought JID and Denzel Curry and Westside Boogie, MixedByAli. It’s cool to see, and to show even those artists that don’t even understand their reach, that people have all that love out there waiting for them.
[This specific question and subsequent answer, via email, is from after the interview was recorded.] I’m curious about how “The Sound Of Tomorrow” came about, a collaboration with The Fiends and EngineEars to bring on other artists to perform and kick it at this festival. What was that experience like?
[Via email] We’ve long partnered with EngineEars on previous projects, such as the Seeing Sounds educational workshops. “The Sound of Tomorrow” was our chance to be a platform and bring aspiring artists to perform in South Africa, a country we’ve always valued for its high musical IQ and giant cultural footprint. Our partners at Rocking The Daisies festival shared our enthusiasm and dreams were made true.
I’m glad you brought up those tight-knit personal connections. A lighter question I wanted to ask you is about a “call for help” that you put out in June to wrangle J. Cole back inside, you wrote, “by the dreads, if you must” because he was running up five-figure bar tabs and stuff like that. How does the Dreamville crew balance out this “work hard, play hard” mentality? You all seem so close going through these journeys together and as lifelong friends.
Yeah, the “play hard” part of it, it leads to a lot of inspiration, obviously. Our music kind of runs the gamut: you might hear us do something introspective and more vulnerable, then you might hear something like “Passport Bros.” That probably would’ve never happened if me and Cole weren’t in London and Barcelona and Miami on benders, you know what I mean? So I think, with anything, our music is always going to reflect our life, and it’s always going to be honest in that regard. You want to be well-balanced in that effect. It’s a blessing to travel the world with your homies and be well-received in all these cities and just have a blast. Like, these are the moments we’re gonna remember forever, so we got to immortalize them in the music.
That sense of balance is something I’ve been thinking about a lot with this new album. You do such a great job of not just balancing things out topically, but also in the production. You mentioned Jersey, there are a lot of Afrobeat influences on here, you have your classic boom-bap cuts, you have your more dreamy Jungle-inspired stuff. Did you expect to tackle all of these genres in this way? You’ve always been very versatile, but did you expect to tackle something like a Jersey beat or something like “Passport Bros,” something like “Diamonds”?
That’s a great question. No, honestly, I think when it began, it was much more of just a slow burn. You know, the “Diamonds,” the “Risk,” the “Wait On Me.” I knew that I wanted to give it some tempo, some bounce, just just some sonic curveballs. So when I started doing the more Afrobeat-type records, and that tempo kind of opened up the space to do the Jersey bounce, to do the amapiano, it just felt like a way to get there and still remain cohesive, you know? I have songs like “The Jackie” that could’ve been on the album, but they just felt like they didn’t belong. I wanted to find a way to still bring energy and vary the sonic landscape. Everything kind of was built brick by brick, but I think in the beginning, it was just all those slow burn records.
Do you think that came about more from you talking with producers, or it was just sounds that were presented to you naturally? That you were, like, “Oh, actually, I could probably do that.”
Yeah, nah, I think the first one was “U-Turn” with my brother DJ Mo, who produced it with his partner Guy. Obviously, “U-Turn” is still super vibey like a lot of the album, but it kind of introduced the Afrobeat element. Once we had that, we were able to grow that into “Testify,” which is the amapiano production. I did that with Loma as well and the homie Herc from South Africa, from Johannesburg, and Sha Sha. They’re all part of the ecosystem of the Stay Low record label, the guys I do the festival with out there. So everything kind of happened naturally in that regard. Then once we had that, I was like, “Alright, well, let’s kind of build this section out a little more.” Obviously, I’m from New York, and I’ve been inspired by what’s going on on the East Coast with the Jersey bounce. I had this Jungle sample, and I’m like, “Well, if I did it, how would I make it my way?”
So I had the Jungle sample that they sent me. They sent me to loop and I went to the homie and I’m like, “Man, throw a Jersey bounce on this, let’s see what it sounds like.” It was cool, honestly. I would say “U-Turn” was the beginning of that whole up-tempo section. Then we built it out. I like to think of albums in acts, you know? I think that act of that album is super important. It kind of gives you that space in the middle that’s kind of a curveball without taking you out of the sound of the album. Then the last act is probably personally my favorite. That starts with “Paper Cuts” and goes into “Diamonds” and “Yao Ming” and “Wait On Me” and “Dr. O’Blivion.” Those are the mission statements of the album, those last five, six songs, you know?
I like that you get introduced to what it’s doing, you get taken on this ride, and then there’s that sobering moment at the end. It’s also kind of akin to how these convos happen, you know? Like, “Passport Bros” is kind of like that 2AM, 3AM moment where we’re lost in the good times. Everyone’s getting lit and we haven’t reached that point where we make it back to the hotel suite. It’s five, six in the morning, we’re sitting on the balcony with whatever we got left to drink. That’s when the real s**t, that’s when the real conversations really come out of us, you know? I think the album kind of mirrors that art of how those nights happen.
One thing that’s always impressed me about your music is your balance of melodic, buttery performances and rapid-fire, personal, and braggadocious verses. “Diamonds” stood out to me as a particularly good example of this. Is there any difference for you in the creative and recording process for melody and for verses, or do they both come from a similar headspace in terms of writing?
I think with melody, I don’t worry about the words as much at first. It’s about just finding the right melody that complements the music and the instrumentation. Then I can kind of devise my words from there, Opposed to something like “Light Of My Soul,” where there’s something I clearly want to say and get across, that’s going to probably be much more pensive in writing. But I think with melody a lot of times, if you’re just trying to be on your phone or in your notepad, you can miss the magic, you know? Sometimes you just want to throw the headphones on, turn them up, cut the mic on, and just kind of go with what you feel. At the end of the day, especially when it’s melody, you really want the audience to feel whatever it is you’re feeling. You want to evoke that emotion. Once you have that emotion that you’re going for, whatever emotion the music is giving you, then the words are usually not too far behind. I think the most important part is getting that melody that just feels right.
Would you say that for this album, the melodic elements came about once you had the music laid down, or did you try to plan everything out beforehand?
No, I would say all of them came from the music. I think that first things first is what the producer does, or what the musicians do. That’s why I had such a good time recording with Lydia and Linden and that whole U.K. collective of multi-instrumentalists. I can just sit there while they’re jamming out, pull out my phone, and just voice note some melodies, you know? That way, everybody can keep jamming. I don’t have to stop the session, like, I was just doing a lot of that on my phone. And then I’ll kind of deep dive into it after.
That’s an interesting process considering how easy it can be to share beats, studio sessions, verses that you record and send back, and two collaborators might not even be in the same room. You can really tell on this album when that live instrumentation is coming together because it feels like it’s pulling from so many different places that it might be harder to materialize when you don’t have that closeness.
Yeah, absolutely. It was all hands on deck. You know, some of the things I would do, they would add me into what I had heard, or counter-melodies, or just really help bring it all to life. They really helped center on my sounds and my artistry.
I wanted to mention one of your singles from the album, which I think is also among the most powerful songs. “Khartoum” is a song that you reflected on social media a couple of weeks ago on how it means a lot to you. You also mentioned that you were a little bit skeptical about whether or not the message was going to be able to cut through all the noise, which it definitely has for people. You reposted a lot of messages that you got after releasing that song, which speaks about the violence in Sudan, and about everything that’s going on. That’s unfortunately really within context with what’s going on in Gaza and so many other places in the world right now. Why do you think that it can be so difficult for these humanistic messages to resonate with audiences these days, especially within the genres that you’re playing in?
Man, that’s a great question. I mean, I wish I knew, but I’d be lying if I didn’t say I’m conscious of that, you know? That’s where sometimes, you get to like, “Man, like, do people even want to hear this? You know what I mean? Are people even gonna care, can they relate? That’s the biggest thing, because you’re making music for people to relate to. But with that song, it just felt about a higher purpose. I had to speak for people who are voiceless at this time, and it just felt like something I had to do, you know. I didn’t care about the metrics or anything of that nature. Like, we might usually pore over how did this stream first week, and anything you regularly would do with a single. None of those things really mattered. It was more for friends and family that are in that struggle. For my parents who wake up every day and deal with that depression of seeing their motherland torn apart. To my cousins, and everyone in the diaspora that feels the same way. It just felt like it was something I had to do.
Absolutely. I think it really resonated powerfully on the record. It starts off with a very melodic verse, very melodic chorus, and then you really get into the meat of things, ending off with the audio of a news report. Was that a main idea for you with that song structurally, in terms of wanting to ease people into that process? I just found it very interesting the way that you presented it by structuring out the song.
Yeah, to be honest, Adekunle Gold, who’s on that record– he’s from Nigeria, super dope artist– he came in the studio. This was, like, September, me and my guy Kel-P, we’re doing some sessions. Kel-P has produced a few songs for me, including “Ho Chi Minh.” [Adekunle] did the hook. Man, I just loved the hook, it brought so much emotion out of me. When I went to write my verse, I didn’t necessarily know what I was going to write about. But again, you always let the music dictate the emotion. And then it just came to me. As soon as… I think “Carryin’ everybody’s ills” was the first bar. That was just months of pent-up frustration and depression about the situation back home.
Like I said, seeing seeing my elders in a way I’d never seen them, speaking to friends that were fleeing the country, family that were fleeing the country, hearing the horrors of what they were going through, and not having anyone to really speak to about it on my end. It’s hard for people to relate to that, you know? So until I got to write it– I can’t remember, maybe “Live For” on Too High To Riot was the only other time I’ve really shed tears writing something. I wrote it in a small writing room away from the homies, and I had to gather myself before I even went to record it. It was just such an emotional outpouring for me. It just all came out. I definitely salute my boy A.G. and all the producers that were involved with that. They really set the template that just really pulled those emotions out.
It’s also something that the rest of the album does really well; you’re very specific with how you relate to issues that can be very general. You know, coming up through struggle, love, a national issue of violence and poverty. I wanted to ask you about how you kind of reached that specificity. I think that it’s through specifically learning about issues like what’s going on with your home country of Sudan that actually helped folks reckon with some of the very different issues that might be going on for other communities. Through that specificity, you do end up kind of reaching something universal, and I just wanted to kind of get your thoughts on that and how you think that contributes to your art.
Yeah, I think that’s why I named the album We Only Talk About Real S**t When We’re F***ed Up. I wanted every subject to be able to tie back to it. Even if it’s testified as more of like a sneaky link. Like you’re drunk-texting at 3AM and you’re trying to link with this girl, essentially. It’s still one of those things that happens in those moments. Whether it’s “Khartoum,” where that one doesn’t even speak to being f***ed up from a drug or alcohol-induced way. That’s just being being f***ed up mentally, in your soul, in your spirit. Being down bad. I wanted every song to be able to tie back or speak from that perspective. Like you said, that is relatable. Then I wanted to make sure I varied the subjects because I wanted to really give the concept depth, you know what I mean?
Everything from “Light Of My Soul,” which is me trying to maintain my better nature in the midst of continuously getting taken advantage of for my better nature. Or “Decent,” which I’m learning as I grow that there are no perfect partners. Everyone has their ups and downs. You really just want to find someone who’s decent at the end of the day, like someone who you can trust to be a decent person. All those themes and all those subjects have a root, and that’s what the album title signifies. Even “Home Alone,” where Cole is speaking on his childhood trauma of realizing at five years old that he’s the man at a house because somebody’s trying to break into his crib. I’m speaking on some of the things I went through in New York when I was running around in the streets and had an attempt on my life.
Those are really traumatizing moments, you know, for both of us. Those are convo that are almost impossible to have sober, you know what I mean? But they come out of us when our guard is down, when our inhibitions are down. When we feel safe enough or confident enough to speak on it. The majority of the subjects on the album were not easy to tackle at all, but they were incredibly fulfilling artistically.
LAS VEGAS, NEVADA – SEPTEMBER 17: Bas performs onstage during the 2021 iHeartRadio Music Festival on September 17, 2021 at T-Mobile Arena in Las Vegas, Nevada. EDITORIAL USE ONLY. (Photo by Denise Truscello/Getty Images for iHeartMedia)
I’m glad that you were able to find that fulfillment and work with people that, as you mentioned, really fueled that and inspired you to go in those lanes. I wanted to bring it all the way back to 2013, when you released your second mixtape, Quarter Water Raised Vol. 2. You also featured on Cole’s Born Sinner along with 50 Cent. Looking back at those days when your career was taking off and you were finding these connections and these audiences that would be so important to you, what do you think has changed the most about you as a person and artist since then? What would you say is something that has remained very constant for these past 10 years?
I think what’s changed the most is that I’m fully past my 10,000 hours. Then, I think, I had the benefit of guys like Cole, Ron Gilmore, and the producers that I was working with that had put in their 10,000 hours and were developing me as an artist. Therefore, they helped me kind of speed along in the process. Obviously, since then, my ability with my pen, my ability with my voice, my ability to implement my opinions into my sound, and being able in a sense to help produce my sound has grown. But I think what’s remained the same is, even from my earliest mixtapes, I was rapping on Jamiroquai instrumentals. I was jumping on U.K. garage. In my soul, I was always building this very expansive sound that I’m thankfully looking now in retrospect at how it’s kind of kept me out of a box.
It’s helped me build the fanbase that respects and admires the risks that I take sonically. I see sometimes in my peers, that’s not so much the case. Even if they’re dope at something new, people don’t even give them the chance because it’s like, “Yo, this is the version of you we want, the version of you we’ve grown to love, and we don’t want to hear nothing else.” I almost feel bad for them, because that’s so limiting for an artist. I think that’s one thing that I’m thankful that I did from the beginning, just kind of opening up the sonic pallet.
Obviously, this is in a very different way than what you’re doing as well, because you play with so many different genres and so many different styles and do them all in your very own way. But I can’t help but ask if you’re looking at all the really bad Twitter takes on the new André 3000 album and feeling that way.
Yeah, I mean, that’s kind of a perfect example. Even though like, man, to me, André is one of those guys who’s been doing things left of center forever. So it’s like, I’m not surprised, and he absolutely deserves to do this, you know what I mean? He absolutely deserves to do whatever he wants creatively, and I’m here for it. It’s gonna get my attention, it’s gonna get my play. Was this album for me? No, I can’t say it was for me, necessarily. But that’s what the guy wanted to do, and he deserves to do that. I don’t know what the takes are on Twitter, so I’m not really sure what you’re alluding to. But I played it. I definitely listened to it.
You can imagine the whole thing of like, “André, there are no bars, we wanted you to rap, blah, blah, blah.” It’s that kind of thing of expectations from the fanbase and everything. But I do agree that you’ve done a really good job of always presenting that genre shift. Just being very creative with it in a way that I think has pulled your fans in this really interesting way.
Yeah, I appreciate it.
I’d be remiss not to close off with celebrating hip-hop’s 50th anniversary. What was the thing that got you into hip-hop, whether it’s the music, the culture, or the history? What is something that you would show somebody who wants to get into this half a century run in 2023?
I would say, for me, Pharrell and The Neptunes. Growing up, I listened to a lot of music. I think one of the first albums I bought with my own money was Daft Punk’s Discovery. So when I saw Pharrell in that world, and then The Neptunes in that world, and then how they built their sounds in the streets from almost an electronic sound, it heavily appealed to me. But then, you know, Get Rich Or Die Tryin’, that was a big moment. I think that’s what I would play for anybody. Like, if some aliens landed from Mars next week, and they were like, “Play me one hip-hop album,” I’m putting on Get Rich Or Die Tryin’ without a doubt.
Kgotso Aphane for The Fiends
That’s a great answer, and I think those are two core strains that are essential to a lot of hip-hop today. Well, Bas, thank you so much for this! Is there anything else that you would like to add or shout out or speak about?
Nah, man, I appreciate you. Those were hella well-thought out. I’m glad, and the way you received this album got me even more excited to share it with the world.
Throughout the 50-year history of hip-hop music, Zaytoven is a pioneer who has gone through and created a revolution. However, usually, when you think of “pioneers” more times than not, rappers are the ones that get the majority of the credit for shaping the landscapes in the genre. However, it would be very foolish to not show grace to the ones behind the scenes who make it all happen. Arguably the most important piece to creating incredible music is the production. Beats can make or break how a song turns out.
Of course, Zaytoven knows how vital colorful production is to a record. Undoubtedly, he is one of the best at his craft. He does not need much of an introduction at this point in his career. He has had it going since the late 1990s and has been a major factor in ushering in the trap sound. Since he came into the game, he has helped deliver iconic tracks into the mainstream, but also for rising artists. Now nearly three decades in, Zaytoven has shifted his focus more into the Christian hip-hop subset. However, he is still working with your favorites like Gucci Mane, Quavo, Lil Durk, and all of the other usual suspects.
In our chat with the German-born hitmaker, we discussed some projects he has in the works, and not all of them are music-related. But, Zaytoven certainly had a lot to unpack on that front. He spoke about his feelings toward AI technology. We asked his opinion on where the state of hip-hop is, after Lil Yachty’s recent statements. Additionally, the Atlanta-based producer recently attended the AfroTech conference to bring his studio sessions to life. Of course, we had to talk about his most recent release, Zaytoven The Trapfather (Instrumentals). This and a whole lot more revealed that his work ethic is not stopping in the slightest.
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA – JUNE 22: Zaytoven performs onstage at Black & Positively Golden Presented By McDonalds during the BET Experience at Los Angeles Convention Center on June 22, 2019 in Los Angeles, California. (Photo by Liliane Lathan/Getty Images for BET)
This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.
HNHH: Hello! How’s it goin’ man?
Zaytoven: I’m doing good. How you doing?
So I wanted to jump right into your solo project. It dropped in November, it’s called Zaytoven The Trapfather. I got to listen to it and I like the way you had this mafia boss-like feeling to the beats. What was your inspiration behind the project?
More than anything I remember back in the day going to the studio and giving out beat CDs. You are trying to get people to wrap on your beats. I used to go to Studio with it and it would have 40 beats on the CD. Now they all might be around two minutes and thirty seconds. And I feel like that was how I was expressing my talent and what I can do. I make so much music every day. Let me get something back to the people, like I used to do just give them a beat CD and let them just start rapping on all the beats, write songs to them or whatever, and that was my inspiration behind it.
Do you plan on getting anyone on these beats in the near future?
As we speak, big artists have already gotten probably five of the beats already.
You’re most friends and frequent collaborators include Gucci Mane, Rae Sremmurd, Shy Glizzy, and Lil Durk. You also have some stuff coming up with Quavo and Juice WRLD at some point. What can you tell us about what you have coming with them?
Man, it’s so crazy that I have some big stuff coming real soon, but it’s things I can’t spoil. And I want to so bad. It’s a timing thing like if we had this interview two weeks from now the stuff would be out or whatever. So it’s just certain things I can’t let the cat out of the bag.
That understandable. We’re looking forward to it. One of those projects that’s already been announced is your one with 1K Phew. Excited for that. We checked out “On Fire” and it sounds amazing. I love Phew’s hook. You’ve worked with them in the past. What has it been like to see his growth within Gospel rap, and also with the Atlanta rap scene in general?
I mean, it’s amazing. I play at a church In Conyers, Georgia called Life Abundantly Christian Center and we were doing this program called Gospel Cafe, and it’s almost like an open mic type of gospel night and he came and rapped and he was dope. My mom was like, ‘Yeah, I like him you need to work with him.’ We started working years and years ago. Then I stayed back and I watched him get signed over there with Lecrae and he doing his thing. And the more I just watched, I waited until the time was right to do a project with him because we have to do it because we connected so long ago on such an upcoming scale, we need to take it to a whole nother level.
For some reason, there seems to be this negative view on Christian hip-hop. Maybe people don’t agree with the message that they’re trying to convey, or whatever their reasons are. How important do you think it is for gospel rap to flourish and how it can expand hip-hop in general?
I think it’s really important. We living in a time in a generation where I think the music almost raises and teaches the kids what to say and how to act and what they should get into. And the more that gospel rap becomes cool, the more it reaches the masses of our youth and that society would be better to our youth. I think hip-hop music has probably the biggest influence on our youth than anything. That’s the reason why I’m putting my best work even with gospel music to make sure I’m in there and trying to help push that message forward.
That’s definitely an important thing and that is the reason why I wanted to ask you that is because Lil Yachty also had spoken about the state of hip-hop recently on his podcast and he said it’s in a stagnant state due to not a lack of originality. I wanted to get your thoughts on those comments.
I’ll definitely agree and I think it’s because technology has made it where everybody can put they music out on the same platform as the artists theylook up to. Even if I wanted to be a producer and I’m not really musically inclined, I can be able to do because the platforms that are making music now, it’s not technical, so I could just learn how to be technical and I can make music and I can put it out on all platforms. And I think it’s so much of that now that creativity almost got washed away. And I think and I will say it’s due to technology. Technology is good, but at the same time it waters down people that have real gift and real musicianship. So, I think that’s really what’s going on more than anything.
You were at the AfroTech Conference at the beginning of [November]. AI was maybe a topic that was discussed, or that you had brought up. Do you think that’s also playing a role in maybe the lack of originality as well?
Definitely. But we really can’t do nothing about it. So you can’t do nothing but try to be a part of it and help steering it in a right direction. But I think everything is so computer based and everything is robotic that its like how much originality can you get from there? You can’t really get a lot of it. Me being a producer right, there are different plugins and programs that made it easy for me to do this or they made it and helped me expand who I am in certain ways. But I understand how it can cripple our musicians and people that’s trying to really make it in music because it’s like this. We’re doing it for you. Who’s making up your mind for you? It’s like you don’t have to learn how to do different things because the computer already knows how to, so it can just do it for you.
Besides [talking about AI], you had a lot of involvement with [Afrotech]. What was your favorite part about participating in the event?
The fact that I got to sit there in front of a whole lot of people and preview my process of making music. For me, to be able to do that right there in front of everybody and watch me create something from scratch to the point where I allowed the people in the crowd to come up and rap to the music. Everything was just done spontaneously. I think that was my favorite part because that to me is what hip-hop is built on that. People that got talent and gifts and can show it and they can do what they own hands and they own mind.
Did any of them have any questions for you on how to get into the industry, or did you impart any advice on them in any way?
I’m gonna start a piano course. Give producers the basic things to learn and my philosophy and the way I hear and see things when it comes to producing music being somewhat of a musician. Knowing these different scales and knowing these different chords can help take you farther than the guy that’s just clicking the computer, going to put in the music together. And that’s really my aim is to help shed light on that and push people back into learning instruments because they’re gonna open up so many other doors when it comes to making music.
Did you want to expand on that at all? Do you have any details on when that’s gonna get started? How can people find it?
I’m actually starting next week on doing just filming and taping the first couple classes. So, I’m not sure I know it’s gonna be in 2024 when I release the classroom. But yeah, I start taping next week. I will announce it maybe via my social media. I’m not sure exactly how I want to announce it, but I’m definitely gonna make it acceptable for everybody to join and be a part of it. It will be a website. It’s a subscription type thing, something that you have to join and I’m really building a Beethoven community of people that really want to get in the music industry or just got the love and heart for music and want to learn and grow and build a network. Because I see that this is what most of our young people want to do. I have a son that I feel like is a real dope artist and can produce for me. I sit and watch him in my studio and he go down there and make beats and record songs all day and I listen like ‘dang you got the gift without me even shadowing you all the time. You almost know more stuff than I know.’
AUSTIN, TEXAS – NOVEMBER 13: (L-R) Fireside chat with Zaytoven and Will Lucas at AFROTECH Conference 2022 – Day One at Austin Convention Center on November 13, 2022 in Austin, Texas. (Photo by Robin L Marshall/Getty Images for AFROTECH)
Can we expect anything from him coming down the pipeline?
Yes, I’m putting his album out on January 2nd on his birthday. He turns 18. So yeah, make sure you put that out here. Zayskii is his artist name and I’ll be putting his project out and I’m excited about it because he watched me but at the same time, he’s not just trying to do it the exact same way I did. He got his own little twist and flavor to it, too.
Yeah, that’s awesome! We are looking forward to that! We’ll make sure we spread that news as soon as possible.I wanted to ask stuff relating to the end of the year. We’re coming to the end of 2023. Do you have anything coming up with family and friends?
I love spending time with my family and everything. These are the times where I really get with the family and try to stop with everything else just to take a break and bring back a new excitement when the top of the year hits. Now, I will be dropping another project called Piano Nights. This one is more piano-driven just to give people another taste or another aspect of what I can do.
Do you have any goals or any sort of aspirations personally that you’re looking to get in place and then attack next year? I know you’re also into the movie scene. Is there anything that we can expect there as well?
It’s just opening more businesses. I’ve been a barber ever since I came in the game. Me and my wife been talking about opening up a spot where I do music. She’s a hairstylist. I want to open up a Zaytown facility where people can come and get their hair done, you can record music. It’s gonna be upscale and exclusive but one of those Zaytoven spots where it’s like ‘I gotta go to Zaytoven’s spot.’ It’s probably gonna be expensive to get in there. But, it’s one of those things that I want to do next year that I definitely feel like I will be doing. [For movies] I go into shooting in January. The music-based movies is not really around and it’s a void. So I definitely want to stay in that lane and continue to create content on that level. I’m thinking, about summer next year. I want to be dropping another movie.
KayCyy is an artist who has been making quite the name for himself over the past few years. Overall, he is an artist who is known for his incredible versatility. From his singing voice to his rapping ability, he is someone who is multi-faceted. With each of his releases, KayCyy has been able to showcase that versatility in abundance. Fans certainly got a taste of that on his latest full-length effort TW2052which is a collaborative project with producer Gesaffelstein.
Furthermore, you probably also know KayCyy from his work on Donda. He was one of the many artists who collaborated on the project with Kanye West. Throughout the album’s creation, KayCyy became an inside source of information on social media. Not to mention, he also got the hook on Keep My Spirit Alive. It was here that a lot of fans were introduced to the artist. However, KayCyy has proven that he can more than hold his own on his own work. He’s an exciting breath of fresh air and many are taking notice.
HNHH got to sit down with KayCyy where we spoke on a plethora of topics. From his latest album to his evolution as an artist, KayCyy had a lot of great insight. Moreover, KayCyy also got to touch on the Utopia situation and how it made him want to stick up for artists everywhere. It was a great conversation that you will not want to miss.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
HNHH: Back in May you dropped off your album TW2052 with Gesaffelstein. How did you get linked up with him in the first place?
KayCyy: It was a connection because we both had worked on Donda and happened to be on the same label. So the CEO kind of just like he put it together in a way that made sense and then when we linked up. It was a really great chemistry. So we kept it going in a way, so I still talk to him.
What was your kind of creative process for that album in terms of the vision and having it all come together?
Just kind of felt like some futuristic type vibes. That’s how I felt as I was kind of new to his style but when I found out it just felt like it was something that’s super in the future. I just tried to match that. That’s kind of why I named it 2052.
How do you feel like your voice specifically fits that futuristic tone and aesthetic?
It’s kind of like sometimes your goal is some dark sounds and I kind of feel like my voice is more like the light. It kind of just matches those dark chords in a way where it just kind of meets beautifully in the middle.
Speaking on other tracks you dropped this year, you also had “My Jeans” which is a funky, groovy, r&b track. Is that a style you are interested in doing more of and maybe even giving fans a full album of?
Yeah, I do have a whole album in that style that I’ve been working on for the past year. That is the direction that’s supposed to come. So yeah, I just can’t wait to give people more that sound. “My Jeans,” that’s just like a taste. Like the first preview of it.
You said you’ve been working on this project for about a year now. Do you find yourself working on other projects at the same time or do you kind of just focus on one thing and try to get it done?
I think I worked on two or three at the same time. I was working on this other album that didn’t go with that whole style of “My Jeans.” I’d like to make trap stuff like my song “Stay Up” and all that kind of stuff. I just wanted to give a project where it’s more focused on my melodies and stuff like that. I’m still rapping a little bit, but I’m rapping on these melodic beats that are kind of live instruments. But at the same time I’m working on something else where I feel like if I’m in a moment and I do make a song that might not fit this style of this project, I just kind of put it in this next one that I’ve been working on
When you promoted “My Jeans,” you had the album art about not being a backup singer. This was right after not getting your proper feature credit on “Thank God” off of Travis Scott’s “Utopia.” How did you feel about not getting your credit and why did you make that part of your song rollout?
I mean, I just kind of felt like what I said, saying. I felt exactly like the whole world saw. But I do have credit as a writer. It was just more so I just felt like there’s a lot of maybe favoritism that happened in a way where my name was revealed as a feature, or maybe it was just a confusion on that part. That’s all. That’s all I felt at the time and I’m really passed it. But I tied it into the cover art because it was what I truly felt, the whole I’m not a background singer thing. Just for any artist, it’s not easy for smaller artists to do that compared to bigger artists because they’ve had a moment to kind of showcase their talents on different tracks, but it’s like when you have only a few opportunities to do so and it kind of gets a place in the backdrop, It doesn’t really help your future.
Every single year since 2020, you’ve been dropping at least one project a year. How do you feel like you’ve seen yourself evolve as an artist during that time frame?
As I get older I see different things, so I feel like it all correlates for my music. So every project is kind of a different theme. I look at everything as a superhero. I’m kind of Rob. It’s like every project is a Marvel movie or something of another Avengers or another Captain America or something. Like just fitting in your character in these different scenarios. So it’s always something different.
In 2022 I got to see you at Rolling Loud and it was a great performance. Now that you have been on the festival circuit, how has it been growing as a performer and being able to connect with fans on such a large scale?
Especially after this year I grew as a performer. After Rolling Loud I did so many other things like going all over the world in different places. So it was different and going on my own tour kind of definitely shaped me as a performer and understanding what kind of performer I’m trying to be and whatI need to work on and what I’m already good at. The China tour that I just recently did was really good on that because it really just gave me more faith in what’s to come in a way. I’m saying cuz it’s like those are actually packed out shows for myself.So it was interesting to see that all over across the world.
Throughout the years and certain situations, you have gotten an outpouring of support on social media. But sometimes, social media doesn’t reflect real life. But now, you’ve gone on tour and you’ve seen that fanbase materialize in sold out shows. How has it been being able to just get that affirmation that you are on the right track?
I think it just goes what I was saying about faith. I have my discouraging moments in my career, so it’s just like when you have those reassuring moments, it really does help me and put that battery in your back.
One thing that fans remember you for is in 2021 when you were helping Kanye West with Donda. For many, you were a hub of information giving inside information on the album. It is how a lot of fans discovered you. Take me through those days and what it was kind of like being an insider while also being a creative who’s helping with writing the album, but also just somebody who’s kind of connecting with the fans and trying to give them that inside scoop on what’s happening.
I mean, I probably shouldn’t even have been doing that. But I mean at first that’s some stuff that I did get in trouble for but it was out of pure excitement and just being in that vibe. It was dope. I mean, I feel like anything happened. It’s just that whole experience was really a learning experience. Producing wise seeing new things in life. I feel like I can’t take no negative from those moments like everything that I could take from it was positive. I learned a lot.
How did working in that fast-paced, pressured environment influence how you now work in the studio?
Obviously Ye is one of the greatest if not the greatest producer that’s living. It’’s dope to see how he puts songs together and the process of it and obviously it’s like if you’re seeing somebody that’s considered a genius do that you want to pay attention and let it soak in and obviously I do take some of those techniques and use it on my own music. Alsojust collaboration is what it really showed me, working with more than just one person to get the job done..
Yeah, and that kind of leads into my next question which was who are some of the artists or producers that you’re kind of excited to work with or want to work with in the future?
I really want to work with Rosalia one day. I think she’s incredible. And I feel like the beats that she chooses are very interesting.. I can’t wait to be in the same room with her. I’m saying. People maybe Tyler, the Creator something like that. Those are people who I haven’t worked with.
For sure and just to end off. what did you feel like was your biggest achievement in 2023 and then moving from there, what’s your goal for 2024?
Being able to tour in 2023 was probably the biggest achievement.2024, just praying to put out this album and see what comes from it and hopefully get back on the road. Put out some more clothes. Something I’ve been working on and that’s it.
McKinley Dixon is no stranger to making critically acclaimed music. The Chicago via Virginia rapper already had two full albums under his belt when he started to generate some serious attention in 2021. That year he released his album For My Mama And Anyone Who Look Like Her which received massive amounts of praise from nearly everyone that heard it, including music critics. The album was praised for its conceptuality and for its rich instrumental palette which pulled from a wide array of influences.
But even more so, it was praised for Dixon’s writing and performances. The album presented a mix of genuine and earnest emotion with clever wordplay and a seemingly endless series of catchy hooks. It also delivers a rich variety of collaborators, something that fans have come to expect with every new project from Dixon. But if 2021 was when he made himself known to conscious rap fans, 2023 served as a full-on breakthrough for McKinley Dixon.
Late last year, McKinley Dixon announced that he had signed to City Slang Records. And with the weight of the label behind him he transitioned into an even bigger undertaking. McKinley Dixon’s Beloved! Paradise! Jazz!? dropped in June of this year after it was teased with 5 singles and numerous music videos. The album is an even bigger group undertaking than his previous work with both the volume and variety of collaborators increased.
With Beloved! Paradise! Jazz!? McKinley Dixon climbed to new heights commercially and critically. The album reached more fans of conscious hip hop and jazz rap than ever before while dazzling critics in the process. Fans of the album also became obsessed with Dixon’s live performances, many of which were shared throughout rap circles online. Now, McKinley is reflecting on a year that brought him some major changes and unprecedented musical success.
This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.
HNHH: You dropped your new album Beloved! Paradise! Jazz!? this year. When you look back at 2023 was that the most important thing that happened to you?
McKinley Dixon: Yeah. See the thing with the album is that it’s kind of over a long period of time. Like it “came out” on the 2nd, but it didn’t really come out to me on the 2nd. It was a big moment in my career you know. Big overarching pivotal moments. Like among the moments that were non-personal, that was the biggest moment. To my audience, it was a big moment, which is valuable in its own way but different than a pivotal moment to me.
Are you the type of person to pay attention to the response to the album from fans and critics? Because it’s been quite positive.
I think it’s hard not to. Especially because I put so much of myself into a record. I think what’s not really thought about is that when somebody critiques a record by a rock band it’s like 4 individuals came together to make this record. But when it’s a rap record it’s kind of like critiquing the direct life of this artist. Because I’ve been doing this for so long outside the realm of the public eye I don’t really give too much to it, though it is sometimes really funny to read reviews. Sometimes I go on Rate Your Music, it’s very bad, it’s horrible.
Because people are misconceiving the words and the concepts, or you just don’t think they’re giving it a fair shake?
Just because people are ridiculous. Having access to this many opinions at once is not what we were meant to do. Especially to be reading it before 9:30 in the morning, definitely not. So no, I try not to think about it.
One of the things that stands out right away on the new record is the variety of collaborations. Do you go into an album already deciding that you want it to be a sort of group project or does that just happen along the way?
I always sort of do, I just think that it sounds better. With each new record, it’s a new large layer of people’s introduction to myself. I took this one and just had the resources to make it a little bit closer to how my mind thinks about it. With each record I want to get a little bit closer to what I think I want to sound like. This record is close, it’s very close, it sounds great.
Do you think there’s a particular collaboration or song on the record that came together in that perfect way?
I just remembered that the last question was about collabs, okay I’m back on that. I’ve always collaborated and I think it’s better to have a record that is a joint effort because people usually record when they’re feeling a lot of things. I think it’s really nice to have everybody’s ideas and feelings on a record. A lot of my albums are very messy but they’ve always involved a large group of collaborators. But on this one, I was able to tighten it up. I always work with the same people and it’s like a Wikipedia article, people and past memories sort of come in and out during different eras. I love adding people to this world that I made. I love every single person on there. Every single rapper on there is my favorite rapper. I’ve worked with them all so closely and all of them are still so reliable. They’re all special to me.
We also got the “Run Run Run” Remix with Blu. You said that the Blu and Exile album Below The Heavens was something that made you want to be a rapper in the first place. So what did it mean to you to get to work on a track with Blu?
I’ve been in contact with Blu for a long time. You know, Blu is accessible he’s not hard to reach. I’ve always known that I love this artist and always been aware that there is a way to contact them eventually. I talked to Blu in like 2017, 2016 maybe, and I was like ‘Let’s do something’ but that never came through. It wasn’t the MOST like it wasn’t obnoxious. It did just sort of keep this person in close proximity so that when I did have the resources we could do it. And it means a lot. I was in like 9th grade when that record came out, it’s the first record I ever owned on vinyl. It was my first underground rap. That record was just like, a connection between these rap icons and somebody who’s just like, in their room. Which was me at the time, and Blu too. It’s cool now because nothing’s impossible.
You played quite a few live shows this year. You just got back from your first time touring Europe. How was it?
Extensive, long, eye-opening, affirming, and stressful. I would also say beautiful. There’s a lot.
And are you thinking it’s time to take a break from touring now?
Oh my god, yeah. Maybe the US but Europe, oh man. I was there three times this year. It was cool, people knew the words out there which was beautiful and affirming. I would do it again, maybe in 2025.
People who love your music particularly love some of the live performances that make their way around online. Are there any particular performances of you out there where you really feel like you were at your absolute best?
Back when I was doing house shows there were some CRAZY moments. If you go to my Facebook page and go back to 2016/2017 I was doing a wall of sound with sax, violin, drums, bass guitar, sometimes two drummers and there’d be 35 people in there. The first shows with Soul Glo where we started to see the upwards trajectory a lot of those recorded moments are history not only for me but for the local scene and what was going on around that time, it was crazy.
Outside the scope of music, what sort of personal time did you get this year?
The transition from Richmond to Chicago showed me that you have to be intentional with your loved ones. It’s good to grow and change, that’s a big thing. As I’m seeing other countries it really is like, you have to be intentional with everyone you meet. Really just learning to talk to everyone you can try to remember everybody.
Have you had the chance to listen to much music that came out this year?
Yeah, what have I been listening to this year? ICECOLDBISHOP’s album GENERATIONAL CURSE, really solid rap album. I really liked Pierce The Veil’s The Jaws Of Life. Sampha’s album, Armand Hammer, Noname’s album, Kelela’s album, Sweet Pill, Spanish Love Songs.
Since you’re clearly paying attention to rap music, recently there’s been some big artists like Offset and Lil Yachty and older guys like Juicy J musing on the state of hip-hop and calling it kind of stagnant or uncreative. What are your thoughts on that?
I think I’m making cool sh*t. There’s not really a lot of folks that sound like me and not a lot of folks that sound like peers of mine. Maybe Juicy J should do a jazz album, that’d be cool. Maybe Offset should do like a spoken word thing with The xx or something. Maybe they should switch it up a bit. Because I think it’s easy to have cemented a place of concrete understanding and not really critique yourself. I can list off a ton of artists that are incredible, just not in the mainstream. Who am I to change that? Juicy J should change that. That’s Juicy J’s job, he’s done it two times already I admit that.
When Homeboy Sandman is in Los Angeles, like he was for this exclusive interview, he loves nothing more than to walk around and take in the sights. Whether it’s on his grocery run, to ease his mind, or to listen to his next records up for release, the Queens rapper lives fully in the present. That goes for when he goes up to his home state, too, and the result is someone who, rather than just being hyper-aware of his surroundings, is hyper-aware of himself. You can hear that through H.S.’ lyrics: raw, honest, vulnerable, and wholly removed from compromise or pulled punches in his messaging.
In this new sit-down, Homeboy Sandman talked about his growth and path as a titan of underground lyricism in New York and beyond. He went over some of his favorite 2023 media, holiday meals for the season, and his various albums and mixtapes that he dropped this year. The 43-year-old is nothing if not prolific, creative, and passionate about what he believes in and what he stands for, so he had a lot to say during our conversation. Furthermore, he even spoke deeply about his everyday life; you’d be hard-pressed to find someone who more vividly describes why certain types of people annoy him.
Jokes aside, Homeboy Sandman has a lot to be proud of, and a whole lot more coming down the pipe. Perhaps the most salient idea or emotion throughout this exchange is the hope in new hip-hop, in an era in which a 50th anniversary celebration coincides with more division and segmentation than ever. It’s never been an easy path, and it’s only going to get harder from here. But he’s too aware of the problems and promises permeating rap to do anything but act upon them.
This interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.
Homeboy Sandman (Credit: Art Morera)
HNHH: As you know, HotNewHipHop is doing an advent calendar series where we’re putting out a new piece of content, such as interviews and lists, every day leading up to Christmas. You already kind of had the leg up on us on that idea with your 2023 project, 12 Days of Christmas and Día de Los Reyes, for which you dropped one of the thirteen tracks off the album every day leading up to its full release on “Día De Los Reyes” (January 6). How did that album come up for you conceptually? What inspired you to put it out with that release schedule, and with a title and a concept that calls back to your Puerto Rican and Dominican heritage?
Homeboy Sandman: I remember I was in the gym working out. I had some music in my headphones, and I had recently linked up with Luke Warmth, who’s the art director for Dirty Looks [his record label]. It’s been so fun to link up with him and be able to get creative, you know? Ever since getting up with him, I’ve been trying to think up what can we drop. What are good reasons to drop? I’m always creating joints, you know what I mean? Like, we did two joints yesterday and two joints the day before that. It was really that that last jam, the “Dia De Los Reyes” that I wrote, that I was like, “I want to put this out, man!” They won’t have no hooks, it’d just be like, verses. I was like, I’m gonna just drop one of them.
The thing about it was, you know, I’ve heard all throughout making music that the holidays is a time that people stay away from as far as drops. People are distracted with family celebration and cooling out. It’s not a conventional holiday album. I mean, none of the songs are about the holidays, but it just felt to me like a cool idea, you know? I grew up loving music and I still love music, and when I was growing up, my favorite crew was The Roots. When I think about, “Should I drop this or shouldn’t I drop this,” I think if The Roots would have dropped a holiday record out of nowhere, would I have loved that? Yeah, I would have loved that, you know what I mean? So cats that’s rocking with me like I was rocking with The Roots or whoever it was I was rocking with, my favorite rappers, the more the better. It was really a celebratory gift for those who want to check for it.
For sure, and thank you for the gift! You were talking about how you’re always looking to drop stuff. How do you think that process of looking for those windows has changed for you over the years, not just with the shifting industry and release methods, but also as you’ve grown as an artist?
I think that it’s gotten a lot more intuitive. I used to be a lot more opportunistic in the sense of waiting for the right time, you know? Like, I put out three independent records before I was ever rocking with labels or anything like that. But there was a big gap in between my second one and the next one. Well, for me, it’s a big gap, it’s two years. I was like, “I’m gonna wait for certain things to fall into place before I drop and I’m gonna get everything oriented and situated these ways.” And that’s not to say I don’t think about that stuff now. Rich came out August 4, and we definitely was waiting up to secure the right digital distro and the right physical distro. There were things we was waiting to shore up, but it definitely ain’t the same as how it’s been. Obviously, putting things out on Dirty Looks, I don’t have to take into consideration the release dates of other artists, at least not yet. Or the considerations that come with being on a label that has a roster, you know what I’m saying? Even though Dirty Looks is going to have the greatest roster ever assembled when it’s all said and done.
You know, l put out a jam today called “Banned in the USA.” I wrote that jam last week. But I was like, “Yo, I love this jam. I don’t want this sitting here.” I’m gonna put out I Can’t Sell These Either November 17 and I’m just gonna add it to that. I put out the “Therapy” Truth Hurts remix, and I had written that the week before. Jams come out and I don’t want to sit on these, you know? Rich 2 is going to come out soon, you know, and Rich 3 is going to come out soon after that. I’m being proactive now rather than reactive, you know what I mean? I’m gonna put the jams out there, thank God for cats that want to check for it, but I’ma have things reacting to me rather than me reacting to things, you know?
Yeah, and I think that definitely comes across. Before getting into your career, I do want to be a little bit topical, since we’re doing a 2023 retrospective and it’s the holiday season. I wanted to bring up your chorus of “Harina de maiz, plátano maduro” on your song “Día de Los Reyes.” That’s not always a holiday food, but do you have a favorite holiday food around this season that you’re looking forward to chow down on?
For me, I’ve been just eating mad fruits and veggies. You know, growing up, there was a lot of turkey and ham. Puerto Ricans big with the pernil, you know what I’m saying? But I don’t partake in that much anymore. My grandmother, Abuelita Lucy makes amazing arroz con gandules which are always great to get involved in. The stuff that I came up eating– my mother makes macaroni and cheese and fried chicken that at times can be super on point. I love my mom. Sometimes she nails it, other times she falls a bit short, but it’s been a while since I had any of that. These are the things I used to look forward to. My pops is nice with the fish, you know? But I’m just looking forward to my broccoli and my spinach and my kale and my watermelon and my oranges, so that’s what I’m looking forward to right now that got me feeling good.
That’s awesome. What music was heaviest in your rotation from this year? Either something that came out this year or something you were just listening to a lot. Did you have any other media obsessions, like a great book or a TV show you indulged in?
Well, there was a couple of things that really left a big impression on me this year. Obviously, Aesop Rock got that Integrated Tech Solutions, and he’s a brilliant genius and the best in the world. Whenever he drops, it’s a holiday season, you know? My boy Mandella Eskia put out this [album] called BABA, which is really fly, another 2023 joint. Tanya Morgan had a joint called “Don’t Look Up” which was fly, Napoleon da Legend and J Scienide had an album called Goat vs Sheep that was really fly. Black Thought– I brought up The Roots earlier– that record that he did with El Michels Affair, Glorious Game, was very fly. I also did my first headlining show in Montreal in 2023, and got up with a cat named Milla Thyme, who just put out a joint called “More Bounce” that I think is fly. So those are some joints that dropped in 2023. But just as impactful as those, if not more, the two records that have really wowed me and really knocked my socks off in 2023, neither of them is from 2023.
One is from 2022 and the other is from 2021. The 2022 one is by Spit Gemz– you familiar with Spit Gemz? Spit Gemz is extraordinary. He put out a record in 2022 called Home School. It’s short, it’s like an EP, you know? But he got a rhyme… “Blasphemous, worshipping Baphomet, selling sucks and violence to babies inside they basket net, your big homie’s a doofus, he’s not a Silverback, and you’re a Judas but Satan’s gon’ want his silver back.” Amazing lines of truth! And the thing about Spit Gemz is he’s been rhyming for a while. Watching him progress as far as the insights that he has is… The tracks are all amazing. It’s just some of the best rhyming that I’ve heard, and some of the most insightful. And then Shad, who I just put out this song with “Ignorant S**t.” I’ve been a Shad fan for a long time, but had never got to his 2021 record TAO. It’s amazing. I mean, it blew me away and I’m so grateful to have connected with him. He’s got a line on there… “I’m battle-tested but was never that aggressive, even as an adolescent I would rather have a message, but damn I’m fly…” You know, amazing lines. Go peep that, he got a joint on there called “God” that’s got amazing lines.
So the Spit Gemz and the Shad really blew my mind, but them other joints also blew my mind on the music tip, you know? On the movie tip, I like sci-fi a lot. There was this joint called The Artifice Girl that was an independent sci-fi that was really hitting. Another joint called Robots, it was like a comedy with the girl from Divergent. It was hitting. Then I saw this joing called Maggie Moore(s) with Tina Fey and the cat from Mad Men that I thought was pretty fly. Of course, The Equalizer 3. I really like The Equalizer series. Denzels get down with his, or Robert McCall, I think his name is. He reads, he’s polite, he shows mad love, but he’ll shut it down if it need to get shut down. He eats right, he looks out for his peoples, you know, that’s my character. That’s a character I like. Three movies that I’ve seen that wasn’t 2023 that wowed me was The Pledge with Jack Nicholson. That movie is crazy! I love that movie, like, I could talk about that movie all day. I seen Death to Smoochy, which is a fly movie. You know, very much about Homeboy Sandman, but in a different arena.
I got the rhyme that hasn’t come out but… “Like Gucci on Christ, understand that Homeboy Sand is Smoochy on ice.” And then I saw this joint called Daybreakers with Ethan Hawke. Slamming. Symbolism was crazy, loved it. Oh, you know what? Just what I’m seeing around me picking up? Cats been using the greyscale, you up on the greyscale on your phone? I’ve been seeing people switch to the grayscale in order to be less addicted to their phones. I’ve been liking how I’ve been seeing more dissent in mainstream media. When I say dissent, I just mean deviating from the popular narrative. Somebody sent me a link to a New York Times article about how mask mandates made no difference. 2022 or 2021, for sharing that link,, somebody would have tried to assassinate. You know, it’s less about people’s views or opinions or how they feel. I get excited about seeing different perspectives come up in popular media, you know what I mean?
Still now, we can make a lot of improvement. There’s been a lot of censorship that’s real crazy. There’s been a lot of open censorship, which is Instagram and YouTube just coming out saying, ‘If you don’t see things our way, we’re taking you off.’ And it’s kind of embarrassing how many people are cool with that, but that’s a whole ‘nother story. I’ve been happy to see a little bit more variety in mainstream media, even though myself, I don’t really partake in mainstream media a great deal. But I know many people do, you know. But my number one thing that I’ve been seeing and popping off a lot: I’m a plant-based eater. The veganism, the plant-based eating is becoming more and more easy to find options. It’s becoming more prevalent. [My love] sent me a link the other day that was talking about how in Denmark, they’re gonna be the first country to try to implement a full plant-based overhaul. All throughout the educational system, all throughout the whole country. It’s setting an ill precedent, so that’s something that has really helped the frequency in my own life as an individual, so I’m happy to see that picking up steam as well.
Homeboy Sandman (Credit: Balkar Singh)
I’m glad you brought up that transgression in the media. In your music, you come across as not just personal and open-hearted, but also as transgressive. What for you is the most rewarding thing about being so uncompromised in your music and putting bits of yourself within that for people to connect with and to share?
For me, being honest and being authentic generates all the magic in my life, you know? Makes everything about my world go better: my relationships go better, my creativity, which are works in progress for me, because I need to be honest with myself. It’s a continuing work in progress. But seeking and striving for authenticity and honesty with myself and others, all the abundance in my life is tied into that. And it’s so amazing how God just hits me with this abundance, like, I’m just going from making music to eating good food back and forth. It’s a really idyllic state. But that all comes from keeping it real, that’s what it all comes from, you know what I mean?
I want to get rid of all the toxicity that comes with being afraid of being different, or being afraid of whatever’s going on inside me. Llike, I connect with people for real. I put out a jam earlier today. And I’ve been building with people that I’ve never met before. We build because they know where I’m at, because I tell them. They could share with me and we could share insights with one another, learn from one another. There’s all different types of people doing all different types of things in this world. I’m trying to be an artist, I’m trying to express reality through my filter, through my artistry. So a prerequisite for that is keeping it real, you know?
I’m a bit of a newer listener. I started listening to you when you put out “Talking Bleep” in 2016. That was a record where you basically go over certain types of people that annoy you. With the context of 2023 in mind, if you were to rewrite that song today, are there any other types of people that you would work into that song that you’ve found since then?
I actually try to walk a fine line between– I don’t even know if it’s a fine line, maybe I’m just doing a very bad job. You know, between being judgmental and being expressive. The first thing that came to my mind when you asked me that, in the past few years, I definitely would have had– and I’ve written a lot in different songs, but just haven’t made a whole song. I would have had a verse about the term antivax. I would have had a verse about the word wars, the word wars are crazy. If a woman wants to decide if she’s gonna have a baby or not, she don’t get called anti–birth, you know what I’m saying? She gets called pro–choice. If a person wants to decide if they want to take a shot or not, they are called antivax, which is all the framing. It’s another pro-choice thing.
And I’ve talked about the word wars a lot. Me and my boy, we working on this “Amateurs” record. You nice with it. The word amateur comes from the word “amour,” which is to love. What it actually means is people that do it for the love, that’s what “amateur” means. And it’s only in this sick, crazy, twisted society, with things are regarded as meaningful or valuable because they’re tied to the generation of revenue, that that has gotten so twisted out of shape. And it’s like, “Oh, amateurs is not– no, we doing it for the love out here.” I wouldn’t have written a verse about that, that’s just a new insight that my boy put me on to, but I definitely would have had some word wars lyrics in there.
Oh: AI. Come on, B! Cats got so impatient waiting for AI to actually exist, you want to call every computer program AI. Artificial intelligence, it’s meant a specific thing my whole life, your whole life. It’s been popularized in sci-fis. When there’s artificial sentience going on, boom, then we fit AI in and everybody knows. They got the thing in Matrix: mankind marveled in their own magnificence as they gave birth to AI, whatever, right? I think it’s amazing. I think all the ChatGPT stuff is cool. all the filters, put somebody’s face in, make them look like they was Napoleon or whatever it is. This is all very cool, I’m not saying this isn’t cool, this is awesome. I think computers are great. But if you’re going to call this stuff AI, you might as well call a calculator AI. I mean, you might as well call an assembly line in Detroit in 1950 AI, you know I mean?
Computers imitate, it’s amazing the imitation that computers can do now. It’s amazing if you can have a computer that you can have a conversation, because it went and read every single conversation in the world and now it can make up a conversation based on every other conversation. But as long as it’s still making up a conversation based on every other conversation, stop calling the thing AI. It’s just a computer program. It’s just a computer advancement, it’s a tech advancement, it’s a tech update. We’re conditioned to associate the prevalence of AI with a major technological breakthrough, a major evolutionary breakthrough. So now everybody’s saying “AI” to each other, pretending that AI is here! So that would have definitely been another verse in “Talking Bleep.” I would have had to go off on all the people saying “AI,” you know what I mean?
You started off in the underground, putting out tapes before signing to any labels and being on radio stations from college ones to the biggest in New York. How do you think that the new tastemakers in the culture– be they publications, people on social media, et cetera– how do you think that they’re adapting to putting other people on? Especially people like yourself that have more transgressive content and aren’t falling into mainstream media. How do you think that they’re adapting to the algorithms, and to recommendations you’re getting off of a playlist generated by Spotify rather than a radio host?
I’ll give the best answer to that I can, but I’m a little further removed from even keeping a close eye on much of that stuff. Earlier in my career, it was very important to me to try to generate a certain degree of momentum, you know what I mean? Not only am I going to be making jams, but the dissemination of these jams and getting them into the right hands. At some point, I had a certain degree of exposure and reach that I was able to focus on the production. I still seek to get my music to every single person in the world, still strive to be a household name. I still want to be the Bill and Ted of real life, change the world with tunes, you know? When I was coming up, I was like, “Alright, this is the stations I got to try to get on. Blogs is big, you know, when I go to South By Southwest, I’m gonna try to link up with SK and say peace,” et cetera.
These days, I don’t really even know what’s going on as much. I do know that the playlisting is something that people talk about a lot. My manager Darien is, and I mentioned that in the jam today, I do know that cats are going to these…, if the question was how are people doing, I would like to say that just as much as ever, and maybe more than ever because they have more tools, it appears to me that people that love good music are sharing good music, so everything is great. It’s a great time to be making great music because all you got to do is give it to one person that loves great music, and they will give it to somebody else. They’re gonna have all types of ways to give it to somebody else, so that’s great.
You’re talking about tastemakers and you’re talking about trends. Lauryn Hill was the biggest artist, had the greatest record, was amazing. I like it when when the best art correlates, there’s two different wavelengths. One is what’s trending, the other’s what’s actually fly. And I like it when they intersect. That’s not to say they don’t intersect, they intersect a lot. There’s a lot of world-famous household names that are some of the most amazing artists that have ever lived, you know. That isn’t what’s primarily pushed to most people right now, the best art. So there’s a bit of a valley. The records that are most readily accessible to people are not at all the most creative records, not at all the most enriching records, you know what I’m saying? To that, I would have to say that the people that are sending the trends for most people are doing a terrible job.
But their job is not to give the best records out. That’s why I got the rhyme that say, “It’s not about sales, people; they don’t want artists, they want salespeople.” They’ll tell you what your culture is. So they’re not out here trying to get you the best records. They’re trying to make sure you buy as much stuff before you end up in jail, they’re doing a great job spreading that, getting to you what they want to get to you. In that song, I mentioned RapCaviar. The vast majority of the rap on RapCaviar, you could write raps probably better than just based off this conversation. There’s some talent on there, a sprinkling of talent in there, but there’s a lot of trash on it.
I actually went on there to find out what were the playlists I was supposed to shout out on that jam. So they’re good at spreading trash, and they got all these ways of spreading trash, but we got all these ways of spreading good stuff. And big shout out to you for being involved in it. If you love rap records, you want to listen to the best rap records whether they the biggest or not, you know? You was talking about the the algorithmic everything. I think that’s a pretty cool thing, if you pull Homeboy Sandman into the Spotify, I’ve discovered artists based off listening to artists that I like. So I think that’s another cool advantage.
You’re also as prolific of a collaborator as you are a solo artist, working with artists as big as Aesop Rock, Quelle Chris, and so on and so forth. Rich just came out, your collaborative project with Mono En Stereo, and I wanted to ask you if you could recall some of your favorite memories while working on that.
First of all, Mono is my guy, man, that’s my dude. We’ve been rocking for so long. I get to make records with so many talented producers [and artists], but there’s something about me and Mono that has always been there from day one. It’s just a warmth that’s always been there. When I was writing “Fine,” before my lady and I moved in together, she lived in Queens, I lived in Brooklyn. In the summertime, I don’t like taking the train. So I take these long walks. A lot of writing, I do while I’m walking, you know? So I took a five five hour and 13-minute walk to get from Brooklyn to [Queens]. And it was a beautiful day. I had that beat, and Mono En Stereo, his real name is Rich. Rich has a lot of meanings. Much of it is about the richnesss, it’s about true richness, but his name is also Rich, and that’s not a coincidence. So I had that beat and I loved it, and I was like, “We got to do something with this.”
It was on that walk that I found the entry point to it. Once I find that entry point, boom, we’re off, but sometimes it takes a little while to just find that access point. So that’s a real beautiful memory for me. Taking a five-hour walk in the beautiful sun as that song kind of unraveled in my head. Seeing all the things in New York, all types of different neighborhoods. So that’s the first one that comes to mind. I had been in a long relationship that had ended. I was really grateful for kind of the levity that writing “Then We Broke Up” was able to ground me in. Breaking up is hard to do. As far as thinking about good memories associated with that album, it’s easy to say “look on the bright side,” you know what I mean? A lot of the time for me, when I’m trying to short circuit habit or short circuit negativity, it takes a lot of repetitiveness and redundancy. We’re gonna change our attitude about this. I just feel that like being grounded in a record, which is something that I have to write and really brings my creative process into, it was really so helpful for me at that time.
Homeboy Sandman (Credit: Misshattan)
I can’t wait for Rich 2 and 3, like you mentioned. I also wanted to talk about one of your other recent projects, which was with the Oakstop Alliance in Oakland. You teamed up with a nonprofit, you worked with around 20 local artists, and made a really great compilation of it, Royalty Summit. There is such a myth around the hip-hop group or collective. Particularly when working with the Oakstop Alliance, what is one myth about that group dynamic that you found to be true, and another one that wasn’t?
It is challenging to work with others, you know, I find that to be true. Even though I do collaborate a lot, I’m a solo artist. When it comes down to it, I want for everybody to love everything. So if I don’t feel right about a thing, I can’t sign off on it because somebody else does. If somebody else doesn’t feel great about something I feel great about, that’s been more challenging for me, but in the end, I gotta remind myself, “Hey, I’d be the same way.” I fly solo, but I got love for all my collaborators. A lot of the turmoil that come with needing to have a bunch of cooks in the kitchen, that’s something that I could definitely relate to.
I think that, “This cat, he took this jam,” I think that’s a real thing. I’m not going to speak on any jams that I’ve taken, but I did a jam with Kurious George and J–Live called “Enough.” And I love Kurious, that’s my boy, we rock all the time. I didn’t mention his record Monkey Man that came out in 2023. But J-Live took that joint. It’s funny because we actually did “Enough 2,” “More Than Enough,” which is not out yet. And J took that one too, man. Always keeps taking the freaking record you know, what are you gonna do? But these guys are the best rappers in the world. Ain’t no shame in it. I still feel I would never ever go to rewrite a verse. You know what I mean? If your verse is not good enough, then it ain’t good enough. You should rewrite before you even hear the other verses.
As far as working with Oakstop, it was just fun. There wasn’t a whole lot of that competitive spirit, I think we were really blessed to have such a wide variety of eclectic talent in there. Like, this cat Mike Sneed, so amazing. His style was so brand new. It’s so melodic. Like, I love his energy. What a fascinating talent. I wasn’t familiar with a lot of these artists, but then through Oakstop, through Damon Johnson, who’s the head of Oakstop Alliance, he shared with me different things and I said this is fly. Being able to mix those energies of a dude who’s just an established legend with a cat who’s just so hungry. Putting out beautiful energy.
The artists that were all in the room, they were all very unique people already on their own. There was a degree of curation before we all got together inside a room. Damon did also seek to cultivate an environment of creativity and unique artists. That was a great time, man. We got so much done in three days. I can’t remember everybody who was on it. It was a great room. It wasn’t any competitiveness. It was people that were excited to be there, that were excited to shine. I love the energy of cats looking to get on, you know what I mean? It remind me that it’s great energy for me to be around.
Maybe the myth about rewriting verses is something we can take off the board, then. I have a bit of a weirder question, but you’re just such a great and versatile lyricist. Let’s split lyricism into five categories: message, rhyme scheme, flow, punchlines, and character. Obviously, this is going to shift from song to song, but could you rank those from lowest to highest based on what you try to focus on or showcase in your writing?
For me, message is super important. I can’t flip no style not saying something. A lot of cats will come out and they’ll flip a style and they’ll say something so stupid, because it sounds fly. And I’ll be like, “Why did you say that?” They’d be like, “You know I don’t even really feel that way, but it just sounds so fly.” That don’t sound fly to me, you know what I mean? Message is key to me. Punchlines, I guess it determines how you define punchline. Is it the conventional, like, the bar ends in the thing that made the previous bar witty, or is it just saying something that wasn’t expected?
When Lupe Fiasco talks about Aesop Rock, and he talks about his punchlines, he has a thing about his punchlines being just one word, because nobody would ever used that word except for Aesop. And I think that’s a great point, because this cat made a word of punchline. It was Lupe that had that insight, which resonates with me, you know what I mean? From that definition of punchlines, which is just saying something that was unexpected, that’s very, very important to me. I don’t want dull rhymes. I do not want for my next line to be able to be predicted. I do not want that. My original slogan when I first came out is you know, “Homeboy Sandman, flow so crazy, you’d love him even if he couldn’t rhyme, and rhymes so crazy, you’d love him even if he had no flow.” I definitely tried to keep the flow in mind at all times.
I want to talk real quick about I Can’t Sell These Either, a sequel to your critically acclaimed Bandcamp tape that is one of many independent releases you’ve put out. Was there anything different for you this time around in terms of messaging or process when writing this sequel in comparison to the first one? How do you think that these installments fit in your overall discography?
These are mixtapes, so they’re a little different from albums to me, you know what I mean? I talk about “funny business,” it’s a term I’ve come up with. On I Can’t Sell These, there’s a couple of tracks that are funny business tracks. Funny business means that I make these tracks and I love them, but the music business is so funny that these tracks haven’t come out, so I’m gonna put them out on this mixtape. Some of those can be old, and there were tracks between I Can’t Sell These and I Can’t Sell These Either that, in the timespan between the two, have fallen into the category of funny business. So now, they’re eligible for the second one. I wrote them at a different time. The single that have been coming out [I wrote soon before they came out], and the next single that’s going to come out, I wrote also this year.
The driving force behind putting out both of them, like, the concept for both of them is, if I hear something that need to be rapped on, I’m rapping on it, and that still continues to this day. I’m gonna always have jams that I just felt I had to rap on them and they not really conventionally mine or whatever. I find some way to disseminate them if I could find a reasonable way. But I think that the driving force for this one is similar to the driving force for the other. I have 10, 15 new jams that I’ve written that I just wrote just because I was moved to write them, you know what I mean? I had to do it because I love rhyming.
Right now I’m writing a rhyme, I don’t even want to let the cat out the bag. There’s this jam that I used to love so much but it’s a lesser known jam, but the beat was so stupid. Finally found the instrumental the other day, been writing to it. Once I got those 10 to 15 new ones that I really want to share, then I’m like, “Okay, what else do I have that that also satisfies this work that I can’t sell, but I would like to share?” That’s kind of the difference between the two and the similarity.
“Banned in the USA” has one of the hardest like single covers, I’ve seen in a long time. You mentioned that 2 Live Crew was banned for being too explicit, and now you’re being “banned” for not being explicit enough. I wanted to bring up like a specific line: “Cue Instagram to cultivate a whole generation of kids that’s never moved to read about the movie Birth of a Nation.” It’s one of many bars that you have about identity and exploitation within hip-hop on the song. Can you break down some solutions to these big issues that you have seen proposed or that you’ve proposed yourself? Whether it’s for the industry or for the culture at large. Is there such a thing as a good and bad solution to it or are we all working towards the same goal?
I think that’s a great question. Before I answer it, I want to let people know that I definitely have solutions that work, that will work, that are guaranteed to work, and that we could all begin to get involved in today. I would like to share some of those, but before I say that, I would like to let people know that these are not easy. When I talk to people about solutions, they don’t always really want solutions. What they want is easy solutions. I can’t really think of any of those. I was talking to somebody the other day, and there are certain things in our society that are so horrific and despicable that we have a no tolerance policy. We have a no tolerance policy with pedophilia, as we should. That’s a nightmare. It shouldn’t be promoted, passed around, it ain’t cool. We ain’t gonna act like it’s cool.
“Killing n***as, I kill n***as,” that’s a nightmare, you know? “B***hes ain’t s**t,” that’s a nightmare. The misogyny, the money worship, the violence, just the degradation is a nightmare. It’s nightmarish stuff. It’s only because it is commonplace that people are like, “Whatever.” Racism is a nightmare. If I was back in New York, it wouldn’t even be up to me if I was hearing “kill a n***a, kill a n***a, kill a n***a, kill a n***a” walking down the street, blasting through the window. Why I got to hear that? That’s racism, that’s terrible, you know? When you’re at the gym, and the gym is playing “n***a, n***a, n***a” records, what’s going on here? Who’s choosing this jam? They’re gonna look at you like you’re crazy. You’re the only person that this jam bothers. But that’s okay. Because it’s not an easy solution to get out of a car if they’re playing terrible music, to leave a club or leave a party if they’re playing terrible music. It’s not an easy solution. But it is a meaningful and necessary thing to do to protect.
Children are impressionable– we’re still impressionable and we’re adults! It is so ridiculous for people to act like kids are going to be looking up to drugs, guns. Kids are just trying to figure out what to do. It is such a lie. So we need to stop lying to ourselves, and that’s a challenge, right? You need to check yourself every day. That’s a challenge. We could do it. Mega Ran just put out a kid’s record, he’s the artist that I told you about. Him and his wife started fostering a child, and realized that they don’t want to play the same music in front of a child that they listen to on their own. When people start having children, they’re like, “Yo, I can’t play this stuff for them.” It takes that sometimes in order to be the breakthrough, you know what I mean?
So we all do know that there’s toxicity of frequency that we’re absorbing, and that is affecting our life. My relationships was terrible for years because I had all this subconscious “b***hes ain’t s***t, f**k b***hes as much as you can,” the opposite of love, you know? I’m talking about things that are hard, and calling ourselves out on self-deception is hard. But they all fall in the umbrella of a zero tolerance policy. Do you care enough about your kids in your community? Do you care enough about yourself and your behavior and your activity, whether or not you could feel good living a life of integrity to have a zero tolerance policy about hateful things? Because if you can, then you could shut this down yourself. Because that’s what I’m doing, and you could do it, too.
I was recently watching an interview of yours with “The Boom Bap Chat” on Everybodys Hip Hop. To them, you mentioned how your growth had basically led you to reevaluate a lot of the content matter behind Mobb Deep and other classic hip-hop artists that you grew up listening to. How is the way that hip-hop is moving forward in 2023 impacting not just its current legacy, but the legacy of artists that have come before it and artists that already made their mark on the culture?
That’s a good question. I split things into two different categories. I’m seeing stuff in my records right now that I probably will be like, “That’s ridiculous, I shouldn’t say that no more” in a couple of years, you know what I mean? That’s why I try to toe the line between being judgmental because I know that I am steeped in fault and I’m an evolutionary. I’m evolving myself. You bring up Mobb Deep, or you bring up anybody. I brought up Mobb Deep, I grew up listening to Mobb Deep. I wasn’t out there robbing cats or nothing like that, but it’s like, “Yo, it’s cool, this lifestyle.” Like, M.O.P., “Ante Up.” This “we’re enemies “lifestyle, and like, “Yo, I’m ready, whoever’s coming out, I’m gonna take out.”
That infiltrated my psyche, it infiltrated my behavior, and I got to unlearn it. I’m not out here saying burn Mobb Deep at the stake, because I’m grateful to everybody who made art at a level of talent and skill that I was able to learn about talent and skill from them. I wouldn’t even be having a lot of the issues that I have now if censorship wasn’t a big deal. Like, censorship right now is crazy. And people think censorship… it’s another word war thing. People think that censorship is keeping bad things out. Censorship could be keeping good things out. That’s what we’re dealing with now.
So as a kid, when when hip-hop was younger, and the presentation of it was younger and different, the variety between an “I’ll shoot you in the stomach” Kool G Rap, “I’m the coolest cat in the world, I clearly have a lot of women issues,” Slick Rick. You know, they called A Tribe Called Quest and Native Tongues “hippie rap.” The spectrum of life is real. Hip-hop started off with a variety. So when it’s all presented– actually, that’s what I really would like to see. I don’t want uniformity. For me, for the people that feel that it’s going so left of center into the horrific world where people are selling drugs because it’s cool, not because they have no other means of supporting themselves, and going to jail, I’m gonna take a no tolerance policy, and I invite everybody to get involved with me.
For the people that don’t feel the same way, the next best thing is making sure that everything we absorb is talent-oriented, because talent will be the great equalizer. It’s not true that everybody that can rap is a killer. Killing and music got nothing to do with each other. A lot of people that can rap cut grass for living or wash windows, you know what I’m saying? So we need to make sure that we got the window wash rap, and the killer rap, and the race car rap, and the whatever. We need to make sure we have variety, and variety will be based off talent. I personally think that when I look at the evolution, I believe that mainstream media even goes to test how far they could go.
When they came out with Soulja Boy, they were saying, “Yo, it’s been kind of crazy that these people, these listeners, we’ve been giving them this stuff, and they haven’t turned against it. Can we really give them anything? Let’s see if we can really give them anything. Let’s see if they’ll turn it off.” You know, I’m targeting that, but I think it was an example of that. But there’s other things. Some stuff I hear now in the background, I’m like, “People haven’t turned this off?” So I think that they go to see how far can we go. Once they see that you don’t turn off the Soulja Boy, “Oh, we got these cats, you could just give whatever.”
You can make a record that is every bit as skillful as the majority of records on RapCaviar. Something’s wrong with that. I always bring up Stevie Wonder. People didn’t listen to Stevie Wonder and say, “Oh, I could do that, too.” ‘Cause it’s a God-given talent. People don’t listen to Homeboy Sandman or any of the other rappers that I revere and say, “I can do that, too,” because you can’t. It’s not supposed to be “Anybody could do this” because everybody can’t do this. So when you hear somebody doing something that sound like a zillion other things, let that raise a red flag for you.
Homeboy Sandman (Credit: Art Morera)
Is that something that you’ve noticed more, that the negative attention is also fueling a lot of this interest?
Yo, I hear about rappers because people tell me they can’t stand them. This is why I hear about rappers, B. “Yo, have you heard this new rapper?” That’s the way I hear about mad rappers. It’s a “There’s no such thing as bad publicity” thing. If it was really about pushing what people liked when they heard it, it’d be mics getting murdered instead of Pop Smoke, you know what I’m saying? Because they’re not out here trying to give cats the most hottest record, they out here trying to generate whatever anger, hate, whatever emotional click bait or whatever gets people angry, gets people sad, gets people talking. They really playing to the lowest common denominators in our nature.
They playing to the parts of our evolutionary brain that are just the furthest away from where we’re at and the society we’re trying to live in. Yeah, absolutely, they definitely picked up on that. If these people are going to engage with this garbage, and if they’re going to engage more with it because they hate it, that’s why we got to take it on ourselves, B. If they had a festival, you know, Summer Jam Hot 97 Annual Trash Festival, and nobody went, they’d have Homeboy Sandman on it the following year. It ain’t about me, though. I mean, they’d have Quelle Chris on it the following year.
From January 2008 to August 2009, you hosted “ALL THAT! Hip Hop, Poetry and Jazz” open mic sessions at the Nuyorican Poets Café in Alphabet City, NYC. It’s been home to not only hip-hop legends like Bobbito García and MF DOOM, but also great Puerto Rican and Latine minds and poets like Martín Espada and Sandra María Esteves. How did that intersection of art and culture across national and ethnic boundaries have an impact on you as an artist, as a writer, and just as a person?
All the flavor. I haven’t been to the Nuyor in a while, but all the flavor in New York was congregating at the Nuyorican. Before 9/11, my sister was there. My sister used to do poetry. She was at the Nuyorican the night that Black Thought and Common dropped in. They used a pseudonym like “Lesbian Sex Party,” or something like that. Called them up and they came up and it was Common and Black Thought. I wasn’t there, but Cool Bob Love hosting and Flaco Navaja hosting after that. I was the third host after Bob and Flaco. I felt very proud, and it was the longest-running open mic and probably still is the longest-running open mic in New York City.
Everybody was coming through. There was a lot of tourists in the crowd because it’s a global spot that is well-known. All five boroughs was in there, everybody from every different shade was in there, with every different identity and whatever nation. It was a melting pot of flavor. I really love how we had the live band. Having that warmth and that real instrumentation going on, and everybody had to use it. The one that I did, we had the live band, I did the one on Wednesday, which was the “ALL THAT!” One of them, you’re able to bring some tracks, right? But at the one I was doing, you had to play with the band. So even though you had all these different energies in there, the band was the constant that took everything and held it all together.
That was an amazing time. I met so many amazing rappers, I made so many amazing friends. I mean, that time in my life when I was first starting to come out, that was such an amazing time in my life. I think back to that time often with great joy. And it’s so funny, like, I was listening to Engelbert Humperdinck. “The Hungry Years,” I don’t know if you know that jam. But he talks about, “I missed the hungry years.” Like, we thought we didn’t have nothing, but we had everything. These are the times I was 60 pounds lighter than I am now, B. Sleeping on everybody couch. These are very lean years to me, trying to get a rep. And I was having a ball the entire time, and I would always look forward to that Nuyo that Wednesday, you know?
Speaking on that growth and looking back on those hungry years, how would you describe your relationship to your music once you release something? Are there certain songs and albums or eras that rank highly among your favorites from your discography, do you just quickly move on to the next project, or is it all part of the same connected narrative for you?
I feel most comfortable kicking it with the records that are where I’m at, you know what I mean? And what I mean by that is I want to cultivate a frequency strong enough that I could go in anywhere and have my frequency affect the room rather than have it affect me. But I do love kicking it with folks that be on the same wavelength as me. So right now, I’m loving Rich, I’m loving the recent. There’s a line of demarcation or delineation for me, like, [and that] was Dusty. I don’t like that record at all. Like, that record had to get right out the house. But leading up to that, there started to be a lot of deviation from who I wanted to be.
Don’t Feed The Monster was like a return to trying to have the message that I wanted to have and trying to be in touch with myself like I wanted to be, but I wasn’t as strong with a rapping because I was so weak as a person. I feel like I’m not really flipping styles until the final song on that album. There, I catch a little bit of style. I really love that art, and I feel like it was meaningful to me. I love that album; to me, that’s one of my most important albums in my career. Everything before The Good Sun was kind of a pinnacle of my immaturity for me. That was the best of me before I learned a bunch of important life lessons, you know what I mean? There was a lot of ways I had to be tested and fail in order to grow, so that I could move on as a person. I look at everything before Dusty as, “All that stuff was cool.” Like, a jam like “Couple Bars.” I love that jam, I love the writing, it’s fly, but what did I really know about love?
I didn’t know anything about love. If I brought a jam like “Not Really” now, it would be “Really.” Even though I’ll be able to integrate, I’m the same person and I keep it the same in these ways, but these are things that that have shifted. Because I’m a different person, because I’ve grown as a person, you know what I mean? The records that are resonating with me the most right now, I’m chilling here with my peoples. I got I Can’t Sell These right here, I Can’t Sell These Either right here, Rich, Still Champ, and we all kicking it. And we’ll be here. Until I shed this skin for hopefully a more advanced skin, and then I look back at those other joints. I know there’s things that I don’t understand, always. I’m trying to figure out what they are, you know?
Looking forward to the next year, what’s something that you want to challenge yourself with in 2024, and what’s something that you have been challenging yourself with that you want to leave behind in 2023?
Well, I’ve been working on using any negative emotion, whether it be fear, jealousy, anxiety, as a light on a dashboard. You know what I mean? The other day, I was in a cab right? Dropping me off at the airport. The cat, he didn’t take card. I allowed myself to get a little vexed. Not vexed, but I allowed myself to get a little defensive to the point where it broke my frequency. I feel like I could have negative feelings and emotions without it breaking frequency if I just maintain awareness, and I’m able to see what it is. I’m able to think, “Where does that come from?” And try to use it as a learnable moment for myself, you know?
That’s something that I am working on on a day-to-day basis right now, and would love to try to cultivate in 2024 to the point where I’m not even looking at anger as a bad thing. I’m looking at it as a good indicator. I don’t need to respond angrily, I don’t need to respond with any type of aggression, and it’s just awareness. So vigilant self-awareness is something that’s becoming more and more important to me. The first thing that comes in before for what I’m shedding, like, I’ve always listened to rap and I think “This is so ridiculous.” Everybody out here listening to these songs saying “You ain’t nothing, you ain’t cool.” Who they talking to? They ain’t talking to me.
It’s just so strange to listen to records of “You ain’t nothing,” you know? I would say, probably in 99% of my records, you can’t hear any of that. When I do use “you,” it’s a very specific thing. So I’m kind of naming either a behavior or a group or something like that, right? What does that say about us listening to it that we just listen to ourselves get dissed all day? But that’s something that I feel I’m starting to come into more leniency with. I’m still talking to specific energies and specific people, but before, I would have found another way to reframe it just so that I don’t play into that “you” stereotype. I’m thinking to myself maybe I can have some leniency with myself on that. Maybe it’s been a hindrance to some expression. So that’s something I’ve been letting go of.
We’ve been hinting at it throughout this whole conversation, but we are in 2023: 50 years of hip-hop. We have a whole history to debate and discuss and celebrate. As an end to this enriching conversation, what got you into hip-hop and its history? What would you show someone today if they wanted to get into hip-hop and its history in 2023 in order to inspire that same spark that inspired you?
That’s interesting because I have the same answer to both of those questions. I grew up in a very diverse area of New York City. As a kid, my uncle Sam played the sax, you know, jazz. My father loved jazz, my father worked in clubs. We used to live on top of a club called The Maurice on Queens Boulevard. It was like a rock club. We lived in a little spot above that when I was a little kid. Salsa was big, merengue. Freestyle music was big, there was soul music, disco. There was so much different music that I liked music, but hip-hop wasn’t truly my thing, you know what I mean? My father had hip-hop records, but what brought me to hip-hop for real– this is, like, in the third grade. I always did good in school, it was important. My father told me, “You got to do your homework before you go play.” That changed my life, you know, can’t go play in the building, can’t go play basketball, until you do your homework. So I did the homework, I knew what was on the test, my life changed.
As a result of that, in the third grade, I left my zone school, which I grew up in Elmhurst, Queens, a very diverse area. There’s really everything in the whole world there, so it isn’t like we’re lacking for anything. But it isn’t at all a homogeneous area. In the third grade, I was able to get into this program called the Beacon Program. I went to a completely different neighborhood, everybody was a light-skinned person. It was a very homogeneous thing. All of a sudden, I was the darkest kid in the school. I’m not the darkest cat in the world, it was uncommon to me. There was two brown kids in the school, me and Courtney Sorenson. We felt at that time, we’re kids, we’re really identifying very strongly. These days, I like good people, you know what I mean? I’m happy to find a good person of whatever variety. You cool, let’s talk about God. But at this time, we’re feeling out of place, these people don’t look like us, you know what I mean? Of course, we gravitated to one another and became great friends. And he brought in Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince, He’s the DJ, I’m the Rapper.
This was in 1988, okay, I’m eight years old in the third grade. Up until that time, my older aunts, my father’s younger sisters, my uncle Bobby, my father’s younger brother, they went to put me onto Big Daddy Kane or Boogie Down Productions. But I’m thinking, “I can’t relate to that, I’m a kid.” I can’t relate to Slick Rick talking about these sexual exploits, I didn’t know what’s going on. But Jazz Jeff and the Fresh Prince was talking about school shopping and watching Nightmare on Elm Street, but the production on that album is amazing. And the thing about it is, that album brought me into hip-hop and it was not only the album being great, but that was the first time hip-hop became my identity. I saw myself as different in the environment that I was in, and I was like, “This is my music, it’s not their music.”
I went to junior high school back in a very diverse part of the city. But then I went to high school in New Hampshire. And then New Hampshire was another example of me having to leave where I’m from, to get a better education. As a kid, there were these times when I had to leave where I was from to my academic betterment. When those things would happen, hip-hop was something that made me feel connected. I would be up in New Hampshire, and I’d be like, “Dang, I’m so corny. Everybody’s in New York having mad fun. I’ma listen to Ill Al Scratch. I’m gonna feel like I’m home.” Was that telling me what home was, or was that actually what home was? But that’s when hip-hop really solidified for me.
I do love the art form and I do love the craft, but a lot of it was identity when I first began. I identified that this is my stuff, these are my folks, these are my people, you know what I mean? If anybody were want to get into rap now, I would give them that tape and I would show them that this is a cat that was one of the best rappers out at that time. I lived in Philly for four years, hosted open mics, heard stories about the Fresh Prince and how cats used to try to clown him because he was smiling and having fun. He would say, “Oh, yeah, you want to rap?” And he would shut cats down rapping. I think that was a big influence on me and the style I try to have. I want to keep it love and I want to keep having fun. But if you think you can rap with me, you know you got a better chance straightening out Porky Pig’s tail. So I would give people that tape to show them rap is about being able to rap, and the Fresh Prince knew that.
Homeboy Sandman (Credit: Misshattan)
Homeboy Sandman, thank you so much for this! Really looking forward to everything that’s down the pipeline. Is there anything else you want to add, reflect on, shout out, or anything you’re looking forward to for the next few weeks?
Peace and love! Thanks so much for taking the time to help spread the word. I do got the Patreon, we have a lot of fun on there. patreon.com, Homeboy Sandman. And I do got the email lists. I don’t be on online that much, but if you want to be on the email list, just email [email protected]. Say, “I want to be on the email list.” And we got all types of fun we be having that I be disseminated through that. But beyond that, yeah, just good looking up.
As it pertains to the Megan Thee Stallion and Tory Lanez trial, there was a lot of disinformation out there. Furthermore, you had blogs looking to tout specific agendas. Predominantly, you had those who wanted to make Megan look like a liar, while painting Tory as someone who had been wronged. However, Cuniff didn’t care about narratives. The seasoned court reporter wanted to make sure only facts were being brought to the public. Anyone who listened to those facts would have known a conviction was inevitable. Those who ignored her, are still trying to do the mental gymnastics necessary to arrive at a “Free Tory” conclusion.
In this HotNewHipHop exclusive, we got to speak to Meghann Cuniff about her incredible work throughout the case. For instance, we got to speak at length about just how important it is to vet sources when following a case. Additionally, we discussed the vibe inside of the courtroom and all of the things that were going on during and after the trial. It was easily the biggest trial in hip-hop over the past year, and Cuniff helped document all of it.
We also dive into her career and how she got started with court reporting. Her story is incredible, and if you are interested in law, then she has great insights. Not to mention, you will be curious about what she has to say in regard to the future of court reporting. This includes, how to get seen while also keeping tabs on social media.
The following interview has been edited for clarity
Image via Meghann Cuniff
HNHH: Maybe just tell me about your starting journalism and how you got into court reporting specifically.
Meghann Cuniff: Yeah, I was interested in journalism in high school and worked for the high school paper in Corvallis, Oregon, and then went to college at the University of Oregon and got into the student newspaper there the Daily Emerald, and really felt like I found my niche reporting on things the administration was doing the stuff regarding their efforts to build a new basketball arena that kind of thing. A friend and I who were both reporters there did an investigation into how the student government had used a bunch of student money to go to Sunriver and have a big party. So that really got me interested in journalism, and I ended up doing an internship in Bend, Oregon, and then Spokane Washington with the Spokesman Review covering the legislature. And then that turned into a job with the Spokesman Review where first I was covering schools in North Idaho, but then I went over to Spokane and was covering the day side cops. So that’s what got me into court reporting first just going to the courthouse and looking at search warrants and going to arraignments and different proceedings and we covered a little bit of federal stuff then but it really picked up when I moved to California and I worked at the register at first, but then I started working at the Los Angeles Daily Journal which is like a newspaper for lawyers.
In California, it covers the California Judiciary closely. So I spent four years there and really got specialized training on legal issues and then went to ALM and law.com after that which is another pretty prominent news agency in the legal industry if you ever hear about law firms rank themselves as in the top ALM 100 or top ALM 200. ALM is the one that does those rankings through the American lawyers. So it’s pretty kind of hoity-toity, but I wanted to get back into court reporting for a mainstream crowd. So I went to Law & Crime and that’s when I started covering the Tory Lanez case when I was at the LA superior court because ALM and the Daily Journal weren’t really into celebrity trials like that. They were really interested in civil litigation and the stuff the big law firms were doing but they didn’t really cover Superior Court cases too much like that. So I wanted to get back into that.
What would you say is the most enticing thing about court reporting?
I think all the personalities involved and when you get into the complex cases really trying to figure out the case strategy that the lawyers are doing. I mean, it’s not so much the exact questions. it’s like why are they asking the questions and just kind of like the Dynamics at play in all the cases and then just the human drama that goes on I think what you said about, the assignment where you just go to court and you just write about whatever happens that’s a good example of how interesting Court can be and maybe also how boring but I mean, that’s how I got into it a lot and some of my best stories would be going to the courthouse for a specific case, but then funning into another hearing or another case that was going on and realizing it was a more interesting story. I mean, I remember going to Spokane the Eastern District of Washington the federal courthouse in Spokane for some kind of arraignment or something, but before that, they were doing a bail hearing for a guy. He’d already pleaded guilty to Federal cocaine charges and he was facing a prison sentence and he was allowed out for Thanksgiving. And the hearing was about how he was going to be given an ankle monitor and be allowed out to see his family and spend Thanksgiving with them before he went off to prison so that became the story and it ran on the front page and when I went over the courthouse the next day all the TV stations were over there trying to get his criminal history because he had a big long criminal history. So it was just an example of the news that you can find over there and how they don’t send out press releases on all the cases that happened so you got to be over there and find it.
What are some of the harsh lessons that you kind of learned early on getting into court reporting?
Probably the harshest lessons are just about how unpredictable it can be and how much it can affect your kind of day-to-day existence. Judges and lawyers especially judges run the courtroom and it’s not a beat or a job. That’s good for people who just want to set hours and don’t want to work a lot of extra hours here and there and want to know, day in and day out what you’re gonna do because you’ll just find out how unpredictable Court proceedings can be and how if you have something to do that night or if you think that a corporate seating is only going to be a couple hours or an hour and it turns into a two-day thing how that can really, affect just your day-to-day existence like that. I think the Tory Lanez case is a good example for that because I figured that sentencing was gonna be a couple of days but a lot of those news agencies send people to high profile kind of finality events like that who haven’t covered the case at all and don’t have any idea what to expect and think that it’s gonna be like a half an hour. So a lot of reporters have gone in there thinking it was going to be like a half an hour and they’re trapped in there for two days. And I think that contributes to newspapers, and traditional news agencies, especially in LA not covering trials day in and day out because it’s just frankly a burden for the reporters who have to sit there on the hard benches all day and be there until 5:30 at night or something.
Yeah, and that’s actually one of the questions that I had later on, but I’ll bring it up now since you mentioned it because I was gonna say that, looking at your work on the Megan Thee Stallion and Tory Lanez case and then another big court case that we followed back in 2019 would have been 6ix9ine…the journalist who was following that story in New York was Inner City Press, which I know you’ve interacted a few times on Twitter and the internet was basically the source for that trial just like you were the source for Tory Lanez. and it made me think about how a lot of the court reporting we see now is done by independent journalists on independent platforms. Where do you think that shift happened? Is it a question of newspapers not having the budget anymore?
I think part of it is budget constraints and then a lot of people wanting to write for the newspaper and write long-term stuff and not do the minute-by-minute Twitter stuff which ends up giving people like Matthew (Inner City Press) a huge advantage because in high-profile cases like that people are so interested in the minute by minute and I think a lot of newspapers think that they can survive and do the coverage through, end of day stuff, but it becomes important to people to have updates like that that it’s really an opportunity for guys like Matthew to shine. The reason cases in the southern district of New York get such good coverage is because he’s actually in the media room. He has credentials in a spot in the media room. And a lot of the judges in the southern district of New York, especially for high profile cases, and the reporters can petition that they do this. They turn on an audio feed from the courtroom to the media room. And I’m not quite sure how it works. I went there for the Michael Avenatti Stormy Daniels case because he was a California guy and I felt it had California connections, but I couldn’t get credentials for the media room. It’s like you need to show that you covered cases in the southern district of New York for a certain period of time and so on and so forth. So they don’t just give it to out-of-state reporters for one case, but the federal court in LA doesn’t have… There’s a media room technically, but they don’t have audio feeds like that and reporters are restricted from live tweeting from Court. We can’t even have our phones out and it’s like that in the southern district of New York too. So most of the reporters like Matthew go to the courtroom for big moments or to see things outside, but most of the time he’s sitting at his desk in the media room, and there just isn’t that capability in LA so part of it is just like Logistics. […]
One thing I’m really wishing I had covered was Youngboy Never Broke Again his gun case that he had a year ago or so he got acquitted but I’ve heard just within the US attorney’s office that I mean those felon in possession of a firearm cases, the federal prosecutors they have on it aren’t usually the most experienced prosecutors, but for that case, it was like they were just pushed into a buzz saw nobody really realized or knew much about him and people didn’t really take him seriously. They didn’t know that he would have such a stacked legal representation, but that’s just an example of a case that had been tried in this other District of New York. It probably would have gotten a lot more coverage than LA so I might have gotten a little off track there, but it is kind of an example of just the differences and how much Court proceedings can matter in coverage.
Would you say the recent lack of court coverage has a lot to do with courthouses being less forthcoming with documents and access as a whole?
You definitely see that in LA Superior Court. I’m not sure about the documents situation. I bet the document situation has always been pretty terrible for criminal cases, but at least in terms of cameras in court and filming they were able to have cameras in film a lot more back in the 80s than they do. Now. I mean cameras are completely restricted in the courthouse where the Tory Lanez trial was, but if you look at trials that happen, they’re back in the 80s. They had boom mics in the hallway and cameras getting people as they went in. So there was definitely a huge. change for Less access in the last 20 30 years which is interesting and part of that was just maybe OJ turned into such a media circus and I think there were a lot of Judges who were kind of wary of the circus atmosphere that accompanied some of those trials, but I mean, it’s just the consequences a lot of trials just don’t get more coverage but part of that is also Legacy Media just not having big enough roots on the west coast to fight stuff like that in LA Superior Court. Where is they have such established access in New York the southern district of New York in the media room and the audio feeds and then LA Times doesn’t really step up when I think they should to kind of advocate for stuff like that and there’s just isn’t the media institution and longtime. Institutions out here to fight for that kind of stuff.
Transitioning to the Tory Lanez and Megan Thee Stallion trial, were you aware of the story going into it or did you just stumble upon the trial while doing your usual reporting?
So I was not aware of the story previously, but I was on the LA Superior Court mailing list and they sent out something saying the trials coming up and if you want credentials, email us by this date. So I was already up at the courthouse anyway for Danny Masterson and Harvey Weinstein’s trial and I knew who Megan Thee Stallion was. I hadn’t heard of Tory Lanez or the case, but I knew who she was and figured that would be a fun one to cover but frankly we’d all been going up there you’re going to court for the trials for the last almost it’s been a month and a half or two months. We’re all pretty tired and it was like getting into Christmas time and everything and no one was super excited about covering another trial but I definitely liked to cover her testimony. So I got a press credential for it. That email was probably sent out maybe two weeks before it happened and they had a press pool for jury selection that I got tuned into I didn’t sign up for the Press wall, but I started getting the reports on that and then started following it that way and then Nancy from Rolling Stone had been covering it since the beginning and I was talking to her because she was kind of watching the Weinstein case too. So she had kind of filled me in on it, but I definitely did not know I went in there not expecting anything.
I mean, I’ve been tweeting about Harvey Weinstein here and there I’m getting some attention, but just any tweet about Megan Thee Stallion and the Tory case seemed to do better, but I think it was a couple of days before I really went viral. I think the opening statements where she testified Tuesday and then Wednesday was Kelsey and by Wednesday, I think that’s when things were really jumping. I think that was the day that I got 3,000 followers in an hour. That was when it really first happened I noticed all the interactions all day, but then something happened and I looked at my followers and then an hour later. I looked at him again. I’m like, holy s***. I just gained 3,000 followers, but I ended up gaining 60,000 followers during the two-week trial. It was kind of crazy.
The case itself had a lot of narratives about it circulating on social media. A lot of people had their minds made up already. Obviously, as a seasoned journalist, you can see past that stuff. But did you do any sort of research or were you aware of those narratives on social media beforehand?
I did do a previous story for Law & Crime where I actually called George Mgdesyan and I think I maybe emailed them first and set up a time or he called me. And I remember he was talking about his case strategy and he was telling me that a big part of his case was gonna be he thought the case really depended on him establishing for the jury. What happened at Kylie’s house? And I remember just thinking who is this guy? What happened at Kylie’s house? because I knew that there was some kind of party at Kylie Jenner’s house and I’m like, I don’t think so. Is this gonna be some kind of self-defense thing where Megan was just so out of control? It just seemed kind of funny that he was focused on that but I didn’t know anything about him blaming the friend or saying that she wasn’t shot but going into opening statements, I think it was the second day or the third day where I realized that the fact that Mgdesyan admitted in the opening statement that she was shot was actually really big news because people were saying that she wasn’t shot. I mean, I just thought the dialogue on it was just kind of silly.
When I look back at the two weeks in the trial coverage, it was probably just the purest time in the case before I had just been inundated with all the stupid internet stuff that accompanied it because I think that’s kind of the one big storyline in this case. It’s just a huge disconnect between all the dialogue and The Shade Room Instagram comments versus what actually happened there and I would say because I definitely hear why we would say, what popular opinion is about the Tory Lanez case and then when you look it up on the internet, you’re like, the popular opinion would be that I guess it just depends on where you’re looking but who thinks that the popular opinion is, the people who have the YouTube Lives who defend Tory all the time and the TMZ post that kind of pump them up. I’m not sure if that’s really widespread popular opinion and I think popular opinion. I’m not sure really even takes Tory Lanez seriously. But it just kind of depends on who you’re talking to.
During the trial, there were a couple of bloggers who were around the courtroom who were online delivering half-truths on IG Lives.Essentially making it seem like Tory was innocent or at least making people think that. How frustrating was it to watch that unfold while you were trying to deliver the facts?
I didn’t see too much of it because I was frankly so busy just like doing my own things but it always just struck me as kind of silly. I mean in the end, it’s freedom of speech and people’s perception is always interesting to hear but I was always kind of baffled. I’m like is this genuine do they really think this and I think maybe they do but especially there was one guy. I don’t want to like name names, but he would run out into the hallway and do these breathless updates and stuff and one was their whole thing about Kelsey recanting on the stand because it definitely wasn’t good for prosecutors that Kelsey got up there and wouldn’t say that Lanez was the shooter.
Some acted like it just shattered the prosecution’s entire case and it’s like, the jury can take into account demeanor, right, and the idea that Kelsey was being believable which was recanting on the stand, is something that they didn’t seem to grasp that this was actually a lot more common in gun cases or domestic violence. Prosecutors would kind of know how to deal with it by questioning about her previous statements. And one thing that really seemed to be missed and all the kind of breathless coverage of this is the prosecutors, staring at the shambles of their cases. That’s all over the witness stand for Kelsey’s recant it’s like did you hear the judge say that he thinks the questioning of Kelsey by Tory’s lawyer opened the door for the next day all of us just coming in and just sitting there for an hour. I think it was 80. How many minutes was it her interview with prosecutors from December or September two months before trial where she just tells them everything and totally clearly identifies Lanez as the shooter the fact that that just played all in full to me that became the bigger story because she testified over two days. So the first day was about her recant on the stand and then of course the second day of testimony she was doing the same thing still recanting.
But at the end of the day when the judge has the tape of her talking to prosecutors. We’re gonna be able to just play that for the jury in full tomorrow. It’s like, that’s a really big story. That’s not good for Tory Lanez that they would be able to play that and all that seemed to be a little bit missed on them, but it’s not so much frustrating. It’s just kind of amusing and fascinating.
With the rise of Andrew Tate, there seems to be this trend of trying to get young teenage men thinking that women are inherently untrustworthy and that they are always lying. This is something that felt front and center with the Megan Thee Stallion case. People wanted to make it seem like she was lying and there were these heavy misogynistic undertones. Did you ever catch glimpses of that, especially from the blogs?
Yeah. I remember the first day of opening statements. When a lot of the coverage was focused on this one throwaway line that George kind of almost mumbled under his breath about Megan doing this before with DaBaby and someone else where I mean, he’s like talking about the victim’s sex life and his opening statement almost like dude. I don’t know if that’s gonna go very well with the jury and it was just like where did that even come from kind of thing? And especially for me coming from my background working at the LA Daily Journal doing judge profiles and working at ALM my earlier background. I mean, I’m not like a prude or some sheltered kid in any way. I mean I grew up in Corvallis, Oregon and I worked at McDonald’s for four years and we used to go to a lot of raves. I mean, I’ve seen some crazy stuff but this whole just denigrating of women. I mean some of these people who I won’t even give the dignity of naming the rants that they’ve gone on including about me. It’s just disqualifying to me. It’s like dude. I don’t take anything that you say seriously because of this huge rant that you just went on about whatever.
Absolutely, and as for the conviction, was that in line with what you thought was going to happen based on the two-week trial?
Yeah, I mean most of the time in cases. I mean the jury likes to convict and some people are like, prosecutors shouldn’t brag about their conviction rate. It’s like prosecutors would say that they can brag about their conviction rate because they don’t charge innocent people. There’s a whole system that goes into place in charging somebody so if they charge them they think he’s guilty but just overall juries like to convict and for a simple kind of first-degree assault case like that where the victim is identifying them. I thought it was pretty likely that he would be convicted and in a full acquittal I think would just be really unlikely but you just don’t know there could be a juror there’s always a possibility of a hung jury, even in cases where I thought that there was gonna be a fast conviction like Michael Avenotti’s fraud case for Stormy Daniels.
The jury went over two days. They deliberated seven hours over two days and the 22nd they were out for three hours and what was interesting was they asked questions really fast within an hour and they had asked to hear back a few testimonies. They also asked for Megan’s testimony, part of it, but then didn’t end up hearing it. But then the second day they were deliberating and that’s the most stressful time waiting for it because you just don’t know what they’re gonna do. But I remember the second we heard that there was a verdict not a question like there is a verdict I was like he’s guilty because if there’s no verdict we’re a hung jury. It’s not going to be an acquittal like it’s gonna be guilty. I was like, God guys, they’re gonna convict them on all counts and his family’s gonna freak out.
That leads into my next question which was about Lanez’s father. When the verdict was in, we all had your tweet notifications on, waiting to hear what happened. We get the guilty verdict and then you tweet that his dad is unhinged in the court. Walk us through that scene.
Yeah, I mean we were all sitting in there and I think he did wait as the jury was walking out. They just convicted him but then the jury is leaving the courtroom and Lanez, his father, stands up and just starts screaming and it was just so loud because he’s a preacher and people have seen the video of him outside the courthouse where he was actually crazier than that in the courtroom, but then there’s also a clip that I don’t see repeated as much but he’s not standing right in front of the cameras, but he goes over to his car and it’s like right before he gets in his car. He lets out another scream and I’m like, okay that is comparable to what it was like in the courtroom. But yeah, he is screaming in the courtroom and the deputies don’t have enough people there because they had more people there on December 22nd, but December 23rd, it’s like this two days before Christmas, a bunch of them have time off and I remarked to one of the reporters that they didn’t have enough deputies in there because if Lanez gets convicted he’s out of custody. So they’re gonna have to remand them and that’s going to be kind of a s*** show but I was sitting in reporter row and the reporter next to me started really freaking out when Lanez’s father started freaking out because it was scary how he was yelling and then just the unpredictability of it and I mean, I’ve talked to judges I know or retired judges that the verdict is always the craziest part because they get convicted all hell can break loose like somebody was telling me that her husband who is a judge was once ordered by the bailiffs to duck under his desk because all the families were freaking out and everything.
So there was the woman sitting in front of us who turned around and said Jay Z is a b**** and then she saw it was me and she was like report that Jay Z is a b**** and then Lanez’s father freaked out. I think after that and then a woman behind us put her hand up in the air and was like and Jesus’s name in Jesus’s name and I was like, this is f****** crazy.
Tory’s team did seem to have a very defeatist attitude in terms of their defense. And eventually, he hired Jose Baez who has a pretty lengthy history in terms of getting people off high-profile cases. However, he didn’t seem to even care about Lanez. During a hearing, he was on vacation and just issued an Instagram story post saying “Good luck.” What do you make of that whole scenario?
Yeah, he did have post-sentencing. He was pretty much done with the case. But I mean the big thing with Baez was there just wasn’t much that he could do post-conviction because it’s like the motion for new trial and then prepare for sentencing and him not being involved in the first trial and not knowing all that much about California criminal law just simply because he’s doesn’t practice in California kind of put him at a disadvantage for really doing anything great like that. But motions for new trial are just Dead on Arrival the vast majority of time, even when really well put together. He doesn’t have very big issues that would drive it. So for anyone who really knew anything about the court system, it was obvious. He was never gonna get a new trial but I think what tripped people up was the way that judge Herriford let it go on for so long and all the delays that he did and everything.
But yeah, it was just that the post-conviction process was looking back just kind of really silly because none of that stuff ever had a chance of happening and I think Baez was there, the whole time once he took over and was doing the motion for new trial and sentencing but then he was so offended by my tweet where I shared his Instagram story, but he wouldn’t just admit that. He wasn’t Tory’s lawyer anymore and he wasn’t gonna be doing the bail hearing the appeal thing and I mean he just acts like the reason that he wasn’t at the motion for new bail is because he just had a prior commitment but I’m like, he’s pretty clearly not Tory’s lawyer for the appeal.
I guess that kind of leads into my next question which it kind of also ties into the letters, right? Because I think it must have been within a week of one another you had the letter from Azalea and Mario. Those went viral, but then also with the Danny Masterson trial you had the Ashton Kutcher and Mila Kunis letters go viral. For a lot of young people, these were the first trials they ever followed closely. That being said, for yourself, the letters were something that is a common practice, however, many were kind of shocked of their existence. Have you been surprised by some of the lack of knowledge from the general public when it comes to court reporting and just these legal matters in general?
Yeah, I mean I wasn’t surprised at the huge outcry. I figured we’d have that but one thing I did just notice lacking in the coverage was the context for how common they are. And then I also thought there was some disingenuous reactions to it from people who basically really don’t like the fact that Ashton and Mila wrote those letters and just don’t want to hear any kind of explanation about how those are common or anything like that because they feel like it’s like defending them or something. And one thing it reminded me is, I got a ton of attention from the Tory Lanez stuff, but the reaction to the Mila Kunis Ashton Kutcher’s letters was way bigger like I had never gotten that much attention for just one kind of story. There were so many big international news agencies that linked to me and I did a story later on about we were talking about how common those are and just kind of the process And for the most part it was well received because there were even people who said, they don’t agree with those letters at all, but they appreciated the background on it, but there was a small group of people who basically harassed me over the fact that I had written an article that they thought was somehow defending these letters or insulting their intelligence or something like that.
I would always look for original sources. There’s so much aggregation and the people who aggregate according to this TV station…this is going to happen in the Young Thug trial. When I read articles like that or click on an article that is saying ‘according to this news agency,’ I always make a point of clicking out of that and going to the news agency that they’re citing because I’m like you should go with the primary sources because I think we’re gonna be seeing a lot of that with the Young Thug trial.
I think that there’s such a tendency in YouTube to just kind of do the shock jock commentary and offer opinions, where as if you can offer context and compare things like the judges doing this and it’s similar to what I saw judges do in another case. I’m hoping that that can be kind of a niche that is filled for those cases, especially the Young Thug Rico trial. I think that’ll be just because I mean that’s like the same county that Trump is charged with RICO. And so that’s an interesting thing to look at. But that’s just one thing. I’ve been thinking about with my coverage of this stuff because obviously people want to hear from me and they trust my insight on these cases. So I’m kind of like what do I do with that? And how do I, try to connect with those people on other cases?
Now that you have all of this notoriety. I’m sure there has been an increased pressure to cover stories related to hip-hop. Whether that be the Rocky trial or the Cesar Pina/DJ Envy case. Would you say that pressure exists and if so, how is it affecting your reporting moving forward?
I think identity crisis is way too strong and dramatic of a term but it’s like that. I’m just trying to figure out what do I do with all this new following that I have because one thing I really like about my job and what I do is actually getting to go to court and cover trials that the central district of California the Los Angeles federal court system is doing because that’s my original base. This newsletter that I have this subject that I have most of my paid subscribers. A lot of them come from the LA Legal community and they like the fact that I know about the judges and cover the big trials that the US attorney’s office is doing so I definitely don’t want to give that up but they also do enjoy the celebrity reporting and some of them really get a kick out of the fact that I’ve gotten so well known and I have such a big following so they are encouraging me to find a way to do both right now.
That answers quite a few my questions but where do you see the future of court reporting going from here on out? Because social media’s changed the game completely in terms of everybody wanting up to the second updates but then also with the video access kind of being limited in certain areas. So what do you think is gonna be the future of court reporting? Do you see maybe newspapers sort of going back to it or do you think it’s just gonna continue to be more independent?
I think it’s gonna be more and more independent. You might see local papers still covering the courthouses here and there but the big National trials and the cases that are ongoing especially, stuff that Law & Crime Network streams. I think the more it’s just turning to streaming and independence and I kind of wonder if journalism is going that route anyway with just the rise of YouTube and how much money you can make off a successful YouTube channel compared to the salaries that you make, even at big papers like the Los Angeles Times. I mean a YouTuber who’s really doing it right and getting big can make a lot more money than people of those papers make so I feel like that’s kind of where everything’s going.
For everybody at home who’s reading this, where can people continue to find your work beyond just your Twitter?
Yeah, legalaffairsandtrials.com. I couldn’t believe that URL was actually available when I looked for it, but I bought it on Google domains for 12 bucks or something and have it set up through Substack. And I really want to focus everything on there: the print articles and using the Subtack notes, but then also my YouTube channel because even some attorneys some of the federal prosecutors I know have said that they like the YouTube lives that I do because they’ll just listen to it on background because it’s like a podcast because as much as I like to think that everybody is reading every single word that I send out especially for some of the people in some of the trial attorneys are frankly just too busy to read everything like that. So they like hearing me talk about the articles to get that so I need to find I’m still looking for my YouTube identity, but hopefully people can tune in to me there and check out all the videos. I’m gonna be posting on there. Substack and YouTube are the big ones.
There are very few artists in the world who’ve produced as much art as Westside Gunn. Though the output slowed down in recent years, there was a time when Griselda fans were really eating out here. Numerous projects per year, including albums, mixtapes, and EPs, stellar guest appearances, and a slew of singles kept the growing fanbase fed. However, in the wake of his recent album, And Then You Pray For Me, he revealed that it would be his final studio album. Of course, this led to the assumption that he was retiring completely.
The rumors picked up instantaneously, leading to dismay among the die-hard Griselda fans who’ve been rallying behind the Buffalo-based collective for over 10 years. Fortunately, Gunn quickly dispelled the rumors surrounding retirement during an interview with Rolling Stone. In fact, he stated that fans could expect even more music now that he isn’t tethered to the idea of traditional studio albums. Still, there’s one particular album that fans hope to see surface, Michelle Records.
If there’s ever an instance where Westside Gunn loses everything to his name, he plans on banking on Michelle Records to lift him out of financial hardships. During our latest cover story with Westside Gunn, he explains that he has the album tucked away with no immediate plans to release it. However, in the vein of Wu-Tang Clan’s Once Upon A Time In Shaolin, the infamous body of work that has yet to be heard by the public, Gunn plans to turn it into an art piece “Whenever I get broke, I’m saying, lookin’ like Franklin [Saint] in the last episode [of Snowfall], I know I can cash in that Michelle Records,” he says.
“I might be sittin’ in the f*ckin’ MoMA with a tuxedo on,” he continues. Start the highest bidder at… let me start it at… we’ll start it at $5 million,” Gunn says. Interestingly enough, Westside Gunn isn’t rapping on the album at all. He teased snippets of the production from the album on social media but he confirmed that he leans into his role as a curator even more so on Michelle Records. “I could play that shit right now,” he adds, revealing that the album is complete. “I was already curating ahead of its time. I’m not on one song, but it already [has] your favorites on it.”
