Of all the music festivals I have covered in the past few years as Hip-Hop Editor at Uproxx, 88rising’s Head In The Clouds Festival has been my favorite. That was true of last year’s edition of the fest, which I both streamed online and attended in person, and remained true of this year’s iteration, which returned to the Rose Bowl in Pasadena for another two days and nights highlighting global Asian talent from across a wide spectrum of genres.
Now, there’s no disrespect intended to Coachella or Rolling Loud, which both put on great shows in 2022 and 2023, respectively. But there are three areas which I consider pretty much essential to the music festival experience and Head In The Clouds has just consistently delivered in all of them both years I attended. From the music to presentation to the vibes of the crowd, Head In The Clouds LA offers one of the best music experiences around, despite its lower profile — or maybe even because of it.
After all, one of the main complaints you hear from festival-goers these days is how “corporate” so many of them have gotten. Sometimes, it can feel like the sponsorships have overridden the focus on the music. Plus, since music discovery is so driven by algorithms and streaming, oftentimes, it can seem as though the booking agents for the bigger fests are just continually grabbing from the same overcrowded pool of talent, resulting in a lot of lineups that share a lot of the same names.
Because Head In The Clouds has a focus on the artists signed to 88rising and a specific, mostly untapped niche, its lineups often present a variety of fresh acts — many of whom are performing in the US for the first time. This means that the potential to discover something truly new is higher than the clouds, as acts from Korea and Japan share their excitement to perform for a whole new set of fans. On Sunday, I learned about Korean R&B singers Yerin Baek and Zion.T and Japanese girl-pop group XG, whose unique takes on familiar grooves perked up my ears and prompted frantic Google sessions.
Meanwhile, being on the fringes of US mainstream awareness gives many of these artists room to experiment. To put it bluntly, anyone with eyes and ears can see how quickly most mainstream popular artists are pigeonholed due to their ethnic background. While the lines between genres have blurred in recent years, you can still see how Black artists in rock are considered novelties, white R&B singers are shunted into a generic “pop” title, and artists who start in one place stylistically can find it nearly impossible to shake off a genre tag no matter how drastically that style shifts over multiple projects.
But because Asian acts are so overlooked by the American mainstream (to the American mainstream’s detriment, I might add) and folks of Chinese, Filipino, Korean, Japanese, Malaysian, Thai, or dozens of other origins don’t fall so easily into the reductive American racial binary, the artists highlighted at Head In The Clouds get to proudly draw influences from across a wide spectrum without judgment or expectation. This leads to stuff like Zior Park’s inventive blend of operatic pop and hip-hop, Eyedress’ nihilistic take on punk and folk, and NIKI being able to coolly swing back and forth between a T Swift-esque form of soft guitar pop to upbeat R&B.
And while it’d be nice to see artists like Filipino-American Lyn Lapid become huge stars, you also get the impression that without the pressure of appealing to a massive, four-quadrant audience, they get to just be themselves and make the music they want to make, which ultimately is more interesting than even the most innovative and experimental alt-pop stuff currently fighting for space on the airwaves lately.
Of course, the festival’s execution makes all this discovery possible, and that’s where Head In The Clouds shines for me. While Brookside at the Rose Bowl is relatively small, it still feels almost too large for this fest. It’s both cozy and roomy at the same time; where other, sprawling fests can make you walk up to a half-mile between the acts you want to see, feeling like a sardine in a can the whole time, the two stages (and the dance music tent) here are all just a couple of minutes’ walk from each other. While sitting by the golf course’s adorable water hazard to catch some shade, we could actually clearly hear both stages — which wasn’t a problem, since few enough of the acts overlapped.
Meanwhile, the grounds themselves are pretty (although the super warm weather lately made this year’s fest a lot dustier than last year’s), with glowing cloud installations dotted throughout the golf course. Each, of course, had a lengthy line of festival-goers looking to take a photo to remember their day. There’s also an animated cloud mascot — a combination of a mechanical gizmo and a projected face — atop the main stage, and its facial expressions often reflect the mood of the music (any time an artist mentioned “tears,” it would cry, which was just about the cutest thing I’ve ever seen).
Also, the food is the greatest combination of items I’ve ever seen. My girl and I devoured a pair of pork belly bao … tacos, I guess … blending all kinds of different Asian cuisines, like a comestible metaphor for Head In The Clouds itself. Food trucks offered a variety of options — we went with garlic chili noodles from a truck called, fittingly, Noods — and even got our photo taken by an appreciative vendor of boba drinks and mochinuts (if you haven’t had mochi donuts, you’re missing out).
What made Head In The Clouds such a positive experience, though, was the vibe of the crowd. As much as some festivals are all about getting the audience to turn up and rage out, that can be an exhausting and anxiety-inducing experience. Not to sound like too much of a square, but watching folks get way too high and pass out or throw up from the hot sun and tightly-packed crowds isn’t something I usually walk away from feeling energized about. But the crowd at Head In The Clouds is there for the music, for the solidarity, to appreciate sharing in common a similar — but not monolithic — experience of existing in society in the paradoxical state of conspicuous and invisible at the same time. I can’t say I know it on the same level, but I can certainly relate.
There are still ways this fest can improve. While the experience inside the grounds is top notch, the parking situation is still a little nerve-wracking due to large chunks of the drive up to the parking area being unattended with few signs or landmarks to follow. At one point, I found myself driving through a residential neighborhood just hoping I was headed in the right direction. And while efforts were made to provide shade, those efforts could have been stronger (I get giving concertgoers more incentive to invest in VIP, where tables with umbrellas were set up, or buy umbrellas from the general store, but maybe put people over profit a little).
But these are minor quibbles against a sea of positive impressions. Give me a dozen festivals like Heads In The Clouds — niche, small fests dedicated to shared interest and a mellow good time — and, like the second stage at 88rising’s unique festival, I will have double happiness.
Some artists covered here are Warner Music artists. Uproxx is an independent subsidiary of Warner Music Group.
88rising’s Head In The Clouds Festival is returning to Los Angeles for its 5th event on August 5 and 6, once again taking over Brookside at the Rose Bowl in Pasadena with a lineup featuring DPR Live, DPR Ian, Jackson Wang, NIKI, Rich Brian, and Rina Sawayama. A number of regulars for the Asian-focused festival return as well, including Keith Ape, Warren Hue, Milli, and more. There’s even a special guest: DJ/producer Zedd, fresh off his appearance in The Muppets Mayhem.
Tickets for this year’s event go on sale next Tuesday, May 30, with a presale on Thursday, May 25 at 10 am. You can preregister for the presale now at the festival’s website. The festival is also bringing back 626 Night Market as its official food partner, ensuring that there will be just as many awesome eats as there are entertaining musical acts.
88rising recently expanded Head In The Clouds to the East Coast with its inaugural festival in Queens, New York, as well as overseas with an event in Jakarta. At last year’s Los Angeles Head In The Clouds, stars like Audrey Nuna, Deb Never, Jay Park, and Raveena helped advance 88rising’s mission to highlight Asian talent in the music world, and this year’s lineup aims to do the same. Don’t miss out.
If you’ve been lingering around Twitter lately, and just so happen to come across Tablo’s Twitter, then you would know the new Epik High project is solely being marketed by memes posted by Tablo and fans. And it’s been entertaining.
After a week of editing memes, the Korean hip-hop trio’s newest EP, Strawberry, released today (February 1). The five-track EP carries two lead singles, both of which are collaborations with two famous acts within the K-pop community. ‘Magic Man’ Jackson Wang joins Epik High in their song “On My Way,” while HwaSa of MAMAMOO features on the group’s other lead single “Catch.”
“What we wanted to do at the beginning of our 20th anniversary together, that is 2023, is deliver music that’s sweet and fresh,” Tablo shared in an official press release. “People may expect music that’s reminiscing or that’s weighed down by the years, but we wanted to go against that expectation and create something that sounds like three guys who just created a group together.”
The new EP is available on all streaming platforms.
The star-studded lineup for Head In The Clouds Jakarta has been confirmed by 88rising. Jackson Wang, Joji, NIKI, eaJ, (G)I-DLE, and Rich Brian will serve as headliners for the two-day festival on December 3 and 4. BIBI and YOASOBI were also teased, and Kaskade is listed as the special guest.
Head In The Clouds Jakarta was first announced August 1, one week before Head In The Clouds Manila was unveiled and three weeks before a two-day Head In The Clouds festival was staged at the famous Rose Bowl in Pasadena, California. That was the second-best 88rising California takeover of the year, as their “Head In The Clouds Forever” Coachella set became the first-ever set curated by a label to perform on the iconic festival’s main stage (as Billboard reports).
“I never really think of us as a label, I think of us as a collective of artists,” 88rising CEO and founder Sean Miyashiro explained for Uproxx’s April cover story. “The label is just a function of putting out music. But before that, we are a collective of artists that want to put out good stuff. It’s about us all coming together, too. And that’s why Head In The Clouds Forever is so dope because that’s just a live, living, and breathing interpretation of what this company wants to be.”
A key piece in formulating that living-and-breathing embodiment for Asian artistry began with the inaugural Head In The Clouds in 2018 at Los Angeles State Historic Park, coinciding with a compilation album by the same name, and 88rising continued to cohesively showcase its artists with Head In The Clouds II in 2019. The highly anticipated Head In The Clouds III will include smash singles such as BIBI’s “The Weekend,” Niki’s “Split,” and Wang’s “Mind Games” featuring MILLI that released last month.
Head In The Clouds Jakarta will spotlight Joji and Wang following the releases of their solo albums Smithereens and Magic Man, respectively. It will also give fans another chance to see NIKI after she was forced to miss Head In The Clouds at the Rose Bowl due to a positive COVID-19 test. Her headlining slot was filled by Joji’s Yebi Labs DJ set.
Two-day passes for Head In The Clouds Jakarta go on sale here beginning Wednesday (September 21).
Joji is a Warner Music artist. Uproxx is an independent subsidiary of Warner Music Group.
88rising’s Head in the Clouds Forever showcase at Coachella remains one of the biggest nights for Asian representation this year. For two consecutive weekends in mid-April, 88rising took over Coachella with a lineup spanning across past, present, and future that had unexpected surprises from 2NE1 reuniting to debut performances that made history. Jackson Wang, a Hong Kong born multi-hyphenate based in South Korea, enthralled fans with his 10-minute performance that previewed his upcoming album Magic Man with “Blow” and an unreleased song, featured tight choreography, and brought honor to the Chinese entertainment industry by shining on an international stage.
To fans outside of America, Wang is known for being a member of the South Korean boy band Got7, his charming appearances on Chinese variety shows, and a fashion entrepreneur through Team Wang design. But Wang has been quickly making his mark in the States as an artist with massive crossover appeal through his English language pop songs (“100 Ways,” “LMLY”) and hip-hop features (“Different Game,” “Bad Back”), focused on introducing a new persona known as the Magic Man. The concept of Magic Man came from a particular low point in his life, where the now 28-year-old artist sees that as part of his journey of finding the new him.
K-pop idols tend to be bulletproof brands who are easily commercialized and marketable with a clean aesthetic. Wang is taking a risk with Magic Man by using his solo music to portray a more raw and honest version of himself, one that feels true to his current moment. He hints Magic Man will have a mix of grunge, rock, and pop, which are rougher edges to the songs his fans are accustomed to. More importantly, it sounds like the music he wants to make, hoping Team Wang supporters have faith in his capabilities to brighten his star power and to enjoy the effort he’s putting into the Magic Man experience every time he performs.
Calling from South Korea, Wang spoke to Uproxx about his Coachella performance and what that meant to him, why Magic Man is an essential listen for the summer, and how more people should understand themselves first before chasing their dreams. This is Jackson Wang pulling the curtain, and it is as real as it gets.
Your Coachella performance this year was an important moment for you. You specifically told the crowd, “This is a moment in history. This is Magic Man. This is Jackson Wang from China.” So as the first Chinese solo artist to make their debut at Coachella, what did that performance personally mean to you?
That meant everything, you know, like me coming from my hometown. And I just want to rep my people out there. Coachella is big for my career and as an artist, you know, that’s just crazy. And honestly, before that performance, I literally thought in my mind that after this performance, I can die. Like, you know what? I’m going to kill it like it is my last performance.
I wanted to give everything that I had, for my hometown, for Chinese [people] at the same time, and for Asians. I just wanted to kill it to the limit that I could. When I look back and after 50 years, 40 years, I don’t even know if I’m going to live that long. But when I look back and tell my grandkids, like, “Yo, your grandpa did everything. He did everything he could.”
Coachella is always a big moment for artists, and I’m glad that 88rising was able to do that type of showcase. And during that set, you performed a song that fans caught on that was new and it hasn’t been released yet. What can you tell me about that song?
My new album is Magic Man and honestly, it’s probably going to be [out] in September. I just think that because I’ll be having a lot more performances throughout the year, in every performance, I’m just going to perform maybe most of the songs on the album. Because as an artist right now, I’m still building. I’m not a well-known artist that everybody knows around the world. I’m at a stage where I need to build. I’m just taking every opportunity I could to perform my music around the world. To deliver it, to showcase it to everybody that watches the show.
You’re looking to drop a new single in July. What are some ideas you’ve been thinking about as you begin to roll this single out?
Oh my God. This music video, this visual, and everything. Usually, when I film a music video, I have my really core team set up the production and stuff. Maybe I’ll just hop in for like three days before the shoot and I’ll prep everything cause everything is communicated beforehand. But this time, everything is from scratch. I gotta be there to create the treatment, I have to direct it, I have to set up every single bit of detail. You know how production works. All this artwork, set, lighting, choreo, movement, camera angles, like all this specific sh*t that I have to go through. But that’s okay. Two-three weeks before the shoot, I’m there to create everything from scratch. It was crazy but me and my team that came with me, we crushed everything in two weeks from scratch. From nothing. It was a hard moment, but in some ways, I think it turned out dope. I think it turned out not bad and I’m really satisfied with what we came up with.We are in the process of post-production right now. Cutting the scenes and adjusting the frame. Coloring. Visual effects and all that stuff right now.
In each of these songs, are you going to try and make them into mini universes or a multiverse type of thing? Is that still true that you want to do that?
Yeah, that’s still true. You know like in an album, everything is in one universe. But at the same time, every song is from different regions in this universe. I wanted to showcase that. That’s why I’ve been shooting a lot of visualizers so you can connect each song. But there are some songs that without visuals, just by the song that you hear, it feels in the same universe but different territories already. That’s why I wanted to emphasize videos to come along with it.
This album, Magic Man, it’s more about the tone of it and the attitude of it. Like me really breaking through my negative moments. I understand that a lot of people think, “Oh, he came from this life. He did this and he did that. He did a lot of variety shows.” I understand that, I really respect that, and I love it. But at the same time, there’s sides like the super raw me, the 100 percent honest that people don’t see. The attitude and the approach, I don’t think people see that. I really want to make that approach [clear], I really don’t give a sh*t.
When you like me and support my music as an artist through my image, people like me for different reasons. And they support me for different reasons and I understand that. I think that’s something that I really appreciate and something that motivates me in every moment. At the same time, I just want to be true to the people that supported me. I’m not a perfect person. I have that vision to grow. I will do whatever it takes. No matter what it is, I want to be better and better. Because a lot of times, I feel sorry for my fans. They supported me since day one even though my music and all the stuff I was putting out in the past was wack. I feel that and I know that every time because I’m strict to myself and my team. I know it was wack but it’s okay. What’s more important is that I’m growing, I’m evolving, and I have that attitude that I’m never satisfied with myself because I feel like I should be better in everything that I do.
Whether it’s music or a talk show, whether it’s a movie or whatever, I just need to be better. That’s the only reason that pisses me off. Why can’t I be better? That’s all I care about every day when I wake up. Before I go to sleep. That’s all I care about. How do I work harder to be a better artist that can convince myself to think, “Oh, this is it.” But I am doing it to my limit currently, but you never know. Every time I try to exceed it, some other gates, some other windows open. I just go through that.
You gotta shatter the glass ceiling and break through. This journey of finding the new you, it sounds incredible.
It’s not. I’m just in the process. I don’t know. In two-three years, four-five years, I’ll make it. And people be like, “Damn, he’s good.” What they have not seen is how I came up. But all my supporters know how he came from wack to okay to not bad to like “Damn, he can do this, he can do that.” I think it’s about the journey.
That’s what I mean. Incredible as in it is inspiring. You have this drive that not a lot of artists have. I get the sense you are a lot happier with your music right now.
Honestly, I’m never happy. It’s not there yet. I just know this is the limit that I can go right now. How can I sharpen my weapons to go to the next level? That’s some sh*t that I need to take on my own. My team is great. They’re very professional, they know what they want, and they are very organized. I love them. At the same time, I just think that product-wise, me as an artist, I just have to take it and I have to be better. That’s it. They can’t perform for me. I need to do it. I need to kill it. Not even that I’m sorry to my fans and my supporters, sometimes, I’m even sorry to my team. Like f*ck, if I can be a better artist. If I can be better, then I can make them proud. I’m not good enough, that’s why I’m trying to be better every single day, even on the little stuff that I’m caring about every day.
Is there someone you look up to? Are you trying to be among certain idols or is it just all on your own?
To me, my ultimate goal in life is to leave something behind before I die. Because life, you never know what happens. You can die tomorrow, right? But I just want to live to the fullest every day. I can produce some stuff. I can do some stuff that makes my supporters or even my team, my family proud. Whatever it is culturally or even just as an artist, I want to leave something behind. Growing up, I’ve always been really into respecting people like Jackie Chan, Donnie Yen, Jet Li, Yao Ming, Jeremy Lin. They did something for the culture and the world like “Damn, they can do that?” That’s been my dream and that’s all I’m going for because you only live once.
Can you tell me what led to Magic Man? Your last album was Mirrors in 2019. What inspired the title?
Because I was in my lows a year and a half ago. For the entire year back home by myself, I was in negative moments. I’ve been in this industry for eight, nine years and everything felt like a loop. Schedules after schedules. I have to do this, do that. But I was thinking, “You know what? I can’t have everything in the world but what is something that I really want? What is my goal in my life? Like I said, what is something that I want to leave behind? Is there something I should approach instead of doing something else that has nothing related to that?” So, I’m like, “You know what? Screw it. Let’s do it.” I know it’s a risk. I know I might not be making a living off it, but it’s okay. I’m just going to do it. If I do it and if I fail, I fail on my own hands. If not, if I don’t do it right, it’s something that I am going to regret for life. So I’m like, “You know what? Screw this sh*t.” I just want to do something that I believe in. Let’s see if it goes well. And if it goes well, I’ll admit it. I’ll do everything that supports the next generation. I’ll believe it, but let me do it first before I’m too old for it.
A lot of people say, “Yeah, you can still dance when you’re 30, 40, 50.” But it’s a different vibe. If I’m at my prime in my stamina and my youth with two-three years left, I’m just going to do everything to that extent. Let me try first. And I really, really want to try and do anything that I can do.
So I was in my lows back home for a year and I got drunk every day by myself. Just thinking: “What am I doing right now?” I see no future. I’m stuck. I’m not inspired. What is it that I’m doing every day? I’m not a person, I’m a workaholic. I’m not a person that wants to communicate with people when I go through stuff. The only thing that I want is to solve the problem. If I’m stressed, there must be a problem so I must solve it. That’s all in my head for many, many years.
But there’s one time where I was in a session and I was cutting a song for the Magic Man album. At that time, I didn’t even have the title for the album, I was just creating songs for the tone and color I was going for. Like grunge, rock, pop melodies and stuff. I was going for that. I wasn’t delivering. I was having a hard time. I was literally crying in the session but then my producer was like, “What’s wrong with you?” He actually shut down the session. He’s like, “Screw this session. It’s not about work anymore. Let’s talk it out.” I was like, “Yo, we are not being efficient. We need to cut this song right now. I’m wasting my time. I need that time right now.” And then he’s like, “Yo, we gotta talk.” For the first time in my life, I actually feel like words mean something. Words are so powerful.
Later that week, I started to talk with my stylist in America, the director in America. They told me the same stuff. We were drinking. They were saying some sh*t that really hit my heart. Like damn, it is real. I never thought that conversation would have such a powerful effect on me.
It hit you differently.
Yeah, it hit me different. I’m like, “Damn it is real.” And from that point on, I just want to do whatever I want, be honest to my fans. Be honest to my supporters, my family, my crew. This is what I want to do. If you believe in me, I believe in it. Let’s just go. If we fail, we fail together. If we succeed, we succeed together. We’re going to conquer. That’s all in my head right now.
You’ve been talking about in your interviews how you want to be a bridge. I think it’s interesting that you want to be a bridge between the East and the West. A bunch of artists have done something similar where they use their platform to connect the East to West, but this is something you truly believe in, and it extends beyond the music industry. Why do you want to be a bridge?
It’s important to connect. When I say bridge, it’s not the only bridge. I’m talking about one of the bridges. More opportunities and more windows to connect. And for me, it’s important to me because I think the East and the West have their own community. What happens in the East stays in the East. What happens in the West, the majority stays in the West. But lifestyle is so interesting that people don’t know. People don’t know or they are not interested. The problem is they are not interested. I think the first step is because they are not interested. What can make them interested? If we have good content, then people would be like, “Oh, what’s happening over there?” This is the real stuff that I want to deliver. How we grew up. How we eat. How we got our education. How we live, what’s the lifestyle like? How is it right now? People don’t know. People can judge it through the media. They don’t know, know. I feel like I want to connect to that.
I want to end on the Team Wang design philosophy of “Know Yourself, Make Your Own History.” I think it relates to more than just fashion, but also for your current career trajectory. You’ve had to overcome obstacles to release your solo music, whether on your own label or through 88rising. With everything you’ve said, do you have a better understanding of yourself now?
I’ve been knowing about myself. Everyone realizes when it’s the outcome, when it’s the result. But what I’m looking for is who is here in the process of building together. That’s the memorable part. Everybody is gonna see you make it, but when you don’t people don’t care. I think 88Rising, Team Wang Records, Team Wang design, everyone in our community right now, even the audience. They believe in that vision.
And everybody is in different industries. Some can be a doctor, some can be working at companies, some could be this, some could be that. All I want my audience to do is think about themselves. What is your dream? Do you know yourself enough or do you like thinking too much about people looking at you that’s why you lose your focus on what you really want in life? You know, you could be paid a lot of salary every month to do something that you don’t really enjoy. But what is something that has always been in your dream that you really want? When you are working and you are doing something that you really love and you have so much inspiration and motivation for it and you’re so dedicated to it, you wouldn’t even think it is a job. It’s that vision that I really want to tell people. Know yourself first.
It felt like you were just talking directly to me. I needed that. I’ve had my own dreams and aspirations but I’m always sitting on my hands.
Nobody knows you. Nobody knows what you want and that exact picture more than yourself. If you don’t know yourself, you can never make it happen. Everyone is different. Everyone has a different personality, different vision, and a different standard of happiness. How can you expect people to know exactly what you want when they have a family too? They have friends too. They have their own lives too. You just gotta make that and explain it very in detail. And just get it. Just get it and it’s done. The product is out the way you want it, then it’s done. If you have that, everyone around you can do what they do. They can do it to support it. They can’t help you draw. If you’re an artist or painter, they can’t help you to draw. You gotta do it. You gotta brief them well. And tell them so they are excited too. And then it is going to work. It’s not going to work when it is like, “Hey, do everything for me. Get a director. Help me to direct this.” This sh*t is never going to work. You might get lucky. There’s luck, too. You might make it, but I’m telling you, all these artists that are successful right now, I look up to them, too. I feel like they have something different in them. It’s not the team, it’s them.
Jackson Wang is a Warner Music artist. Uproxx is an independent subsidiary of Warner Music Group.
After returning to a live event in 2021 and hosting a thrilling set at Coachella this spring, 88rising’s Head In The Clouds Festival now has dates for its 2022 event at the Rose Bowl in Pasadena, California. The groundbreaking label also announced Head In The Clouds Festival’s 2022 lineup for August 20 and 21.
It includes the label’s staples such as Jackson Wang, NIKI, and Rich Brian, as well as a wide-ranging collection of Asian artists including a joint set between Audrey Nuna and Deb Never(!), Korean-American battle rap mainstay Dumbfoundead, Seattle rapper Jay Park, Oakland singer-songwriter Mxmtoon, Japanese rap quartet Terikyaki Boyz, and a DJ set from Joji as Yebi Labs.
In addition, there will be activations from 626 Night Market, which will curate the festival’s food options, Magic Man and the Thunder Theatre, YEAR OF seltzer, and Joji’s Pop Up Shop. Tickets go on pre-sale Thursday, May 26, and general sale Friday, May 27. You can find out more information here.
In Uproxx’s April cover story on the label and its premier artist, Rich Brian, 88rising’s founder and CEO, Sean Miyashiro explained the importance of Head In The Clouds ahead of the group’s Coachella appearance. “Head In The Clouds Forever is so dope because that’s just a live, living, and breathing interpretation of what this company wants to be,” he said.
